[Dan D'Silva]

Hello all,

I've recently wanted to add a sax to my collection, but also need to rein in my spending. It occurred to me that my old Crazy Crow kit-built dirk (which I've wanted to be rid of for a while) has a blade profile much like a broadsax. Do you see any potential here? Or is it just going to look like a chunky dirk blade with a sax hilt? I'm particularly unsure about the beveled false edge.

[Lin Robinson]

I don't. I used one of the same blades, along with some brass mounts, a pommel cap and guard, to make a dirk well over 30 years ago. I also have a couple more laying in a drawer in my shop. Mine are cast and I assume yours is also. For the time and effort trying to re-configure the blade, you could probably grind one out of a piece of leaf spring that you would like better. And there is no telling what you would find once you started grinding on the casting.

[Dan D'Silva]

Huh... honestly, if it's such a junk blade, I'd rather just shelve the idea until my budget looks good enough to buy a decent one.

Well, it was worth asking Thanks for the advice.

[Lin Robinson]

Mine, as best I can recall, cost less than $20 - quite some time ago. It was not marked but the two I bought later were marked "India." May be perfectly OK I just would find it hard to justify the work for what it might turn out to be in the long run.

[Dan D'Silva]

Here's a thought: How about I start by turning the false edge into an un-swedged broken back? That wouldn't take too much work, and it would hopefully reveal something about the steel quality. If it turns out to be poor, no big loss -- it's not doing me any good as is.

[Andrew Gill]

I'd have a go at doing a broken-backed seax, Dan.
If the blade is usable, great! If not, well at least you haven't wasted much beyond some time.
And, depending on how much metalwork you've done, you may have learned some useful lessons for your next attempt.
One's first few knives seldom look pretty, so it's worth trying something that won't cost an arm and a leg.

Actually, if this blade is cast, there are many inexpensive or free sources of medium-carbon steel (rotary lawn-mower blades, old vehicle leaf-springs or leaf-spring stock and some large circular saw blades and old files, to name a few). These can be annealed in a fire and made into very passable blades by cutting out a blank with a hacksaw or angle grinder, which can be ground or filed to shape. You can then send it away to be professionally heat-treated, or even try to do it yourself using a charcoal fire (I've done it in a barbecue, though it is a bit hit-and-miss under such rough-and-ready conditions). It is much more work than buying a ready-made blade or blank, but considerably cheaper, and very satisfying.

[Lin Robinson]

Why not Dan. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[Dan D'Silva]

Huzzah, I have broken its back. Not bad for less than an hour's work, although it still needs a lot of cleanup.

Still not sure about the steel quality. It seems... harder than mild steel, softer than a Windlass. No pitting of the kind that I'd normally associate with castings, but my experience with casting flaws only relates to bronze.

[Dan D'Silva]

Just wanted to let you know, I haven't abandoned this project. It's just that filing out the handles for hidden tangs is easily my least-favorite part of cutlery, so I'm only spending about 10 minutes or so a day on it. But making noticeable progress nonetheless. Also evened out the broken back and re-polished the whole thing to a satin finish.

In the meanwhile, does anyone know where to get an appropriate pommel?

[Joel Chesser]

I really like it, well done! It's a very cool trash to treasure project..

[Kai Lawson]

Pommel plates would likely have been a flat piece of iron, much like the bolster. You could use brass for color continuity in your case. Most sax/saex of the broken back variety would have had a grip of 30-45% of the blade length, generally. There is also little to no evidence of metallic fittings for broken backs, and only a few earlier specific Continental or Scandinavian examples show metal fittings--not counting fittings from the Staffordshire Hoard, which has nothing else. Looking up 'sax' or 'saex' on myArmoury or bladesmithsforum.com will give you loads of info and drawings and photos of the real deals.

However--you could try to tweak it to look like one of the Valsgärde saxes. If you google that term, you'll see lots of interesting examples of a long, bent-back blade with a shorter grip and sometimes metal fittings. The scabbards are also pretty fancy, and might be fun to try as well. I've seen one or two of them in person, and they're slim and dangerous looking.

An even better option might be to make a 'fantasy' piece inspired by historical examples. Make it totally your own, and do whatever you like! Just enjoy the piece, and be proud that you breathed new life into it. Burning the tang in might be faster too, if you have a good clamp or a vice and a torch.

Be sure to post your finished piece! It's looking good so far.

[Dan D'Silva]

[Kai Lawson]

Your call, of course, but why not go with what you have? Your blade isn't bade, but the specific fuller and overall shape aren't the most historical thing ever. If LOTR is part of the inspirational impetus for the project, then check out Petr Florianek and Gullinbursti on Facebook and his website. He does lots of really well done LOTR/Hobbit themed knives, swords, pendants and projects, and they all have a really cool real world quality to them.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't go the more historical route, but you can absolutely make a fantastic piece by combining specific stylistic elements and letting your mind wander. There are no rules. It doesn't have to be weird and impractical to be part of your own high fantasy adventures. If you do this, I would encourage you to check out some of the saxes found in the Netherlands, as some of them have simple little pommel caps with a garnet on either side that look good and flow well. Also definitely check out the Staffordshire Hoard stuff for shapes for pommels or caps. The Thegns of Mercia living history group have done a speculative reproduction of a sax based on the Staff Hoard fittings.

Pommel cap inspiration ideas:
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.20786.html

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.19185.html

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/60/10/00/601000eb09f858d94e0bd752befbe21d--merovingian-gold-wire.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/c7/4d/41c74d9fc8921e606ccc6de1e11fe189.jpg

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Dan D'Silva]

The Staffordshire Hoard material is very impressive. And the chunky top pommel caps from Staffordshire and Nijmegen are very inspiring, though I think hollow cloisonne is... more than a little beyond my skill level.

A sandwich guard and pommel sounds appealing. It would resemble a lot of contemporary sword hilts in that way. I dislike working with bone, but I have some spare holly which would provide a similar contrast, and a small thick piece of bar stock that could make a pommel cap. Hm... this is starting to get fancy.

Thanks again for the great ideas!

[Dan D'Silva]

Haven't forgotten about this one, but I've accumulated more ongoing projects than I can even keep track of, and between summer classes and looking after my folks, it's not easy to get much of any one thing done.

Anyway, it's still going according to plan and I got a bit more work done over the past two days, so I thought I'd share it.

[Dan D'Silva]

Rough shaped the pommel plates and cap today, so it's coming to the point where you can see clearly what it's going to look like. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to fix all the pommel elements together relative to each other and the hilt, since the tang is completely round at that point. The best idea I have is a little hole on either side of the cap for a pair of long escutcheon pins, but the bar stock that I'm making the plates from seems pretty hard and might give such a measly little drill bit a lot of trouble.

The Crazy Crow bar stock that I used for the pommel cap, on the other hand, must be low-alloy or leaded or something, because it's very soft. It grinds into dust as fine as flour and when drilling it just produces tiny flakes instead of coils. It's also got a bit of a golden hue that unfortunately doesn't match the rest of the brass.

Anyway, in the meanwhile I'm just trawling the Web for more inspiration about what kind of detailing to fancy it up. On the whole, I'm liking this blade much better as a sax than as a dirk.

[Alex Indman]

I like how it is shaping up! Not sure "sax" comes to mind when I look at it, but whatever you call it, it will be a nice big fighting knife.

About assembling handle parts on a round tang - you will be usiing epoxy, right? If you just drill/grind a bunch of shallow dimples or cross-hatch the surfaces, epoxy should hold them from turning relative to each other.

Alex.

[Dan D'Silva]

Thanks. I guess it may not look like any sax in particular, since it's basically a composite of features from different pieces I've seen around the Web.

Planning to use pitch glue to reinforce the construction. I'll definitely try your suggestion for the final assembly. However, I want to start with a fix that will let the pommel be taken apart again after all the pieces are ground to the same diameter/cross section on the belt sander, so I can then give them their final sanding/polish without embedding metal dust in the holly. Right now I'm thinking of placing the escutcheon pins through the pommel plates in a position that will then be covered by the cap once it's soldered into place.

Would've been so much simpler to start with a square tang, but hey, working with what there is here.

[Dan D'Silva]

It's done!











Dunno if it's clear in the photograph, but I etched a bird of prey on the pommel cap. The sheath is stained with a single application of homemade walnut dye, which is great because it contains sediment that naturally produces a similar effect to those leather antique gels.

Full details here as usual:
https://danthedsilva.blogspot.com/2022/01/fancy-fancy-knife.html