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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Sep, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject: Nijmegen Sax Reproduction.         Reply with quote

I am currently making a (rough) reproduction of the Nijmegen sax.
I will be posting some pictures of the process on my blog:
http://benpotterbladesmith.blogspot.com/

Enjoy.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Always nice to see a Dutch weapon reproduced. Happy

However, I fear that the hilt in your sketch seems to be a bit on the short side. Also, the original seems to have a "scandi-grind" edge profile, rather than the flat or convex profile usual for saxes.

I've attached a top-view of the same sax for comparison. Length is 59cm. And a picture where the grind can be seen. More pictures can be found in Jeroen's "information about saxes" file.



 Attachment: 20.86 KB
sax_L59cm_500-600AD_Nijmegen_Netherlands18.jpg


 Attachment: 242.46 KB
[ Download ]
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Always nice to see a Dutch weapon reproduced. Happy

However, I fear that the hilt in your sketch seems to be a bit on the short side. Also, the original seems to have a "scandi-grind" edge profile, rather than the flat or convex profile usual for saxes.

I've attached a top-view of the same sax for comparison. Length is 59cm. And a picture where the grind can be seen. More pictures can be found in Jeroen's "information about saxes" file.


The transition point where the grind changes is a scraped or engraved small fuller. It has a matching one at the top of the blade which meets the bottom one in a point. This is a very typical feature of narrow seax. I'm actually not 100% sure that the grind does change...it may be an illusion caused by the fuller? I'm sure someone who has seen this seax in person could say for sure?

Thanks for this much clearer picture! I'm going to have to make a narrow seax like this myself someday. I can't recall...narrow seax are not typically pattern-welded, correct? Does anyone know what some of the typical construction configurations are? Piled wrought back, steeled edge, steel sandwich, etc?

Thanks,
Dustin
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the input.
Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is exceedingly rare to see a sax with a defined ground in edge, as in "scandi grind" (I cannot remember seeing one single example). This type of grind is rare on most types of knives in the european tradition before the industrial revolution. It is one of the most commonly made mistakes we see on modern replicas. I guess this is because it is the expected norm on most modern knives.

Cross section on seaxes is almost always triangular with an apple seed sharpening. This is true for narrow seaxes, light broad saxes, broad saxes and lag saxes. Sometimes the apple seed edge is so generous and sturdy that the edge faces are may look like almost parallel, but there is always some taper in the section.

Various types of groves and fullers may decorate these blades. Some set ups are more common with certain types.

Narrow saxes (like the Nijmegen sax in this thread) are pretty slim in shape and proportions. They are more big knives than short swords. Think large japanese tanto. Or perhaps bayonet? They commonly have scraped groves, but only rarely fullers between there groves. You do find decorative engravings on a number of them that originally were inlayed with silver.

Thickness of the back is some 5 millimeters or so, at a width of some 30 millimeters at base. Dimensions would vary according to size. A slightly bigger blade would probably be a tiny bit thicker, while a slimmer example would be thinner.

Point tend to be a not-quite-centered spear point, and the back sometimes has a very slight hint of a clip point form. It can also be a slightly of set spear point made up of two smooth curves. It tends to be rather drawn out. Generally not so much belly in the point.
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
It is exceedingly rare to see a sax with a defined ground in edge, as in "scandi grind" (I cannot remember seeing one single example). This type of grind is rare on most types of knives in the european tradition before the industrial revolution. It is one of the most commonly made mistakes we see on modern replicas. I guess this is because it is the expected norm on most modern knives.

Cross section on seaxes is almost always triangular with an apple seed sharpening. This is true for narrow seaxes, light broad saxes, broad saxes and lag saxes. Sometimes the apple seed edge is so generous and sturdy that the edge faces are may look like almost parallel, but there is always some taper in the section.

Various types of groves and fullers may decorate these blades. Some set ups are more common with certain types.

Narrow saxes (like the Nijmegen sax in this thread) are pretty slim in shape and proportions. They are more big knives than short swords. Think large japanese tanto. Or perhaps bayonet? They commonly have scraped groves, but only rarely fullers between there groves. You do find decorative engravings on a number of them that originally were inlayed with silver.

Thickness of the back is some 5 millimeters or so, at a width of some 30 millimeters at base. Dimensions would vary according to size. A slightly bigger blade would probably be a tiny bit thicker, while a slimmer example would be thinner.

Point tend to be a not-quite-centered spear point, and the back sometimes has a very slight hint of a clip point form. It can also be a slightly of set spear point made up of two smooth curves. It tends to be rather drawn out. Generally not so much belly in the point.


Thanks for all this information on blade geometry! Can you say anything about blade construction?
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
It is exceedingly rare to see a sax with a defined ground in edge, as in "scandi grind" (I cannot remember seeing one single example). This type of grind is rare on most types of knives in the european tradition before the industrial revolution. It is one of the most commonly made mistakes we see on modern replicas. I guess this is because it is the expected norm on most modern knives.

Cross section on seaxes is almost always triangular with an apple seed sharpening. This is true for narrow seaxes, light broad saxes, broad saxes and lag saxes. Sometimes the apple seed edge is so generous and sturdy that the edge faces are may look like almost parallel, but there is always some taper in the section.


Yes, but if you look at this attached picture of the tip of the sax, it does look like it's a wide fuller. Indeed rather uncharacteristic...

Iīve seen this sax myself, but I canīt remember this feature...

If it is indeed a wide fuller, then the cross-section would be like a Scandinavian blade, I guess. See the attached drawing.



 Attachment: 47.15 KB
fullered sax - scandi.jpg


 Attachment: 109.82 KB
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:

Yes, but if you look at this attached picture of the tip of the sax, it does look like it's a wide fuller. Indeed rather uncharacteristic...

Iīve seen this sax myself, but I canīt remember this feature...

If it is indeed a wide fuller, then the cross-section would be like a Scandinavian blade, I guess. See the attached drawing.


I don't see any signs of a fuller...I do see the two narrow incised grooves i (and Peter) mentioned, though.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
I don't see any signs of a fuller...I do see the two narrow incised grooves i (and Peter) mentioned, though.
Could be, itīs quite hard to see. I think the difference in colour between the edge and the "fuller" might indicate a change in profile (i.e. from convex to fuller), but I'm not sure either.

Next time I visit that museum Iīll try to get a better look at it...
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help.

I do need to say that the length of the piece was set by the customer at around 18" so it will be bit shorter than the original. Also, the sketch is a VERY rough sketch the blade profile will be different and the dimensions are only nominal. After HT the piece is slightly over 18" with a 5 1/2" tang. it is 3/16" thick at the base of the blade with a Appleseed V grind.
My camera battery died yesterday which is why I haven't posted pictures yet.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the blade so far. It is polished out to 800gt and heat treated.


I'll be polishing again tomorrow so I may not post for a bit.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Matt Corbin




PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh that's looking REALLY nice. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the last couple of days progress:


I have a little more to do on the blade and then on to the hilt.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
Here is the last couple of days progress:


I have a little more to do on the blade and then on to the hilt.


Oh, that looks promissing. Big Grin Cool

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Sep, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
Here is the last couple of days progress:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aepG1XqNfAw/TJpp_w_...sseax2.jpg
I have a little more to do on the blade and then on to the hilt.


Awesome! Excellent work on the engravings too!

Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
- Museum photos
- Zip-file with information about saxes
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Sep, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the guards and pommel inlet:

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Matthew Stagmer
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice. I am loving the engraving on the blade.
Matthew Stagmer
Maker of custom and production weaponry
www.BaltimoreKnife.com
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep, 2010 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shaped and polished the hilt fittings today:

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Sep, 2010 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the day's progress:

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the hilt as it sits tonight:


Lord willing I will bed the hilt and peen the tang tomorrow and have this one finished.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


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