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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul, 2011 11:39 pm    Post subject: Gladiatoria Armour         Reply with quote

Iv been studying the Gladiatoria as of lately and have really admired the helms depicted in the manual. I have been curious about its construction: for the helms appear to either be formed around the jaw, or they appear to be using an early bevor? Its hard to tell, cuz nowhere in the manual do you see them having their visors raised :/

They look very formed to the wearer, and looked to resemble great bascinets or armets?

Are either of these that style of helm, or something completely different?

Thanks in advance!
-Reece



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681px-MS_Germ.Quart.16_1v.jpg


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armet_c1440_2-300.jpg
mid 15th century armet

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562px-Fencing_Manual_5r.jpg
Another view of the helm
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 2:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hullo Reece,

I too am rather fond of this style of helmet.
In fact it would seem so are quite a few others.
Check out these two threads:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5957
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16526



 Attachment: 23.32 KB
helmet called a bicoque.jpg
Bicoque. Source: One of those threads.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 5:16 am    Post subject: Bycoque helm         Reply with quote

wow! Thank you for this Happy Probably should have tried to search for this before creating the thread Worried

What was the exact date of this helm?
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The search function is a great thing... So long as you know how to spell what you're looking for Laughing Out Loud
The only reason I was even able to find those threads is that someone told (Nathan I think) about them.
I believe it's meant to date from the early/mid 15th Century Germany, often seen in conjunction with a kastenbrust.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Ben Sweet




Location: 831
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy Eek! Laughing Out Loud
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

by rights, shouldnt his sword have falllen apart by now...
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Sweet wrote:
You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy Eek! Laughing Out Loud


Probably wouldn't be in a judicial duel with that guy unless you were! Laughing Out Loud

Also, one of the duellists was required to throw a weapon to begin the duel in that time and place. A purpose made duelling sword wouldn't fall apart like an Indian wall hanger so its actually a good idea in context. Wink
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Ben Sweet wrote:
You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy Eek! Laughing Out Loud


Probably wouldn't be in a judicial duel with that guy unless you were! Laughing Out Loud

Also, one of the duellists was required to throw a weapon to begin the duel in that time and place. A purpose made duelling sword wouldn't fall apart like an Indian wall hanger so its actually a good idea in context. Wink

well i guess then the tang ISNT affixed crucially to the pommel. like most normal swords are, for example my practical norman has a mean ass tea cozy pommel. which if i threw at you would hurt, except since thats what the tangs peened over exactly 1 second laer my sword would fall apart wih the blade dropping onto my foot.
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

AFAIK, there are some original swords (both singlehanders and bastards) with rivet hole/s in the tangs, which are somewhat wider than average. This'd allow for a dismountable pommel without weakening the hilt, and IF the tang is not only wider, but somewhat thicker than average, the resulting pommel-less sword would be still more or less balanced. Also, I never really understood the mostly modern idea of using the pommel to hold the hilt together...

The other neat thing about Gladiatoria is that it shows quite a few of those vertically striped breastplates. (first image, left side. Sharp lines and rivets hint at a multi-plate construction - compare that with the guy on the right, who has the same shape and arcs on the breastplate, but the arcs are drawn with softer lines hinting at fluting) I always loved those...
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James Millard





Joined: 03 May 2007

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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Reece, if I could ask, where did you find those pictures? I've had a (pretty brief) look online for scans of the Gladiatoria, but all I could find were low-quality, black-and-white scans. Is there a collection of better images out there?
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jul, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Bodorics wrote:
AFAIK, there are some original swords (both singlehanders and bastards) with rivet hole/s in the tangs, which are somewhat wider than average. This'd allow for a dismountable pommel without weakening the hilt, and IF the tang is not only wider, but somewhat thicker than average, the resulting pommel-less sword would be still more or less balanced. Also, I never really understood the mostly modern idea of using the pommel to hold the hilt together...

The other neat thing about Gladiatoria is that it shows quite a few of those vertically striped breastplates. (first image, left side. Sharp lines and rivets hint at a multi-plate construction - compare that with the guy on the right, who has the same shape and arcs on the breastplate, but the arcs are drawn with softer lines hinting at fluting) I always loved those...


well its quite simple really. as a way of hlping keep everything as one piece the tang, for example of many western swords including my own hanwei practical norman sword passes through a whle in the pommel and is peened OVER The pommel. so if you remove the pommel, then there is no tension being delivered by the peening. and thus everything has now room to fall off. unless tangs are helso party held in place by friction against the walls of the grip like japanese blades
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't forget glue.
If someone glues the gavel on with a strong adhesive (i.e. casein glue) and uses a threaded pommel it's no problem removing it to use as a projectile, except that it changes the balance of the blade. In fact it can add some serious blade presence for heavier cuts, though sacrificing finesse and return speed.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Johan,

In this case 99% of the actions with the sword are half-swording - there's only one (as I recall) deflective blow shown with the edge in this manuscript. Everything else is using the sword as a short spear, so losing the pommel wouldn't be that detrimental - except that you couldn't use a pommel strike.

Yours,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

Quote:
Hey Reece, if I could ask, where did you find those pictures? I've had a (pretty brief) look online for scans of the Gladiatoria, but all I could find were low-quality, black-and-white scans. Is there a collection of better images out there?

You get many edition of Gladiatoria from this site. (This site has lots medival fighting manuscripts!)
open this site and Click [show]
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria

Gladiatoria (KK5013)
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(KK5013)

Gladiatoria (MS Germ.Quart.16)
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(MS_Germ.Quart.16)

Gladiatoria (Cod.Guelf.78.2 Aug.2)
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(Cod.G...g.2%C2%B0)

Gladiatoria (CL23842)
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(CL23842)

ummm..... I watched these Gladiatoria for the first time!



thanks Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Mick Jarvis




Location: Australia
Joined: 18 Jul 2010

Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
unless tangs are helso party held in place by friction against the walls of the grip like japanese blades


Japanese blades are pinned to the the tsuka and thats what holds it all together, usually 2 bamboo pins
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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I followed one of Ushio Kawana's links and I found this pic.

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Cod.Guelf.78...._color.jpg

What other evidence do we have for a horse armor that was that spiky?

E Pluribus Unum
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

phuuu.
thats difficult, i do not want to discredit the old masters, but i also think some things are pure fantasy.
the same with leonardo da vinci. he surely was a universal genius, despite half of his technical inventiones would never work.
or talhoffers "new" siege technikes, never would this work, and probably nobody ever tried these crazy folding drawbridges on weels with spikes............
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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well in the same image I linked there is a tortouise type thing that looks exactly like the one in talhoffers 1456 and they are by different artists.
E Pluribus Unum
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Curl wrote:
Well in the same image I linked there is a tortouise type thing that looks exactly like the one in talhoffers 1456 and they are by different artists.


That's because they are both copied from an earlier work, Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis, not because anyone actually ever built one.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds perfectly, reasonable, but why couldn't they have built one, doesn't look much more complicated than any other bellfry type device.
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