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Reece Nelson
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 Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: Gladiatoria Armour |
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Iv been studying the Gladiatoria as of lately and have really admired the helms depicted in the manual. I have been curious about its construction: for the helms appear to either be formed around the jaw, or they appear to be using an early bevor? Its hard to tell, cuz nowhere in the manual do you see them having their visors raised :/
They look very formed to the wearer, and looked to resemble great bascinets or armets?
Are either of these that style of helm, or something completely different?
Thanks in advance!
-Reece
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mid 15th century armet
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Another view of the helm
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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Reece Nelson
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 5:16 am Post subject: Bycoque helm |
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wow! Thank you for this  Probably should have tried to search for this before creating the thread 
What was the exact date of this helm?
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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The search function is a great thing... So long as you know how to spell what you're looking for 
The only reason I was even able to find those threads is that someone told (Nathan I think) about them.
I believe it's meant to date from the early/mid 15th Century Germany, often seen in conjunction with a kastenbrust.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy 
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
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by rights, shouldnt his sword have falllen apart by now...
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | | You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy |
Probably wouldn't be in a judicial duel with that guy unless you were!
Also, one of the duellists was required to throw a weapon to begin the duel in that time and place. A purpose made duelling sword wouldn't fall apart like an Indian wall hanger so its actually a good idea in context. 
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kel Rekuta wrote: | | Ben Sweet wrote: | | You must be really pissed to be throwing your sword pommel at the other guy |
Probably wouldn't be in a judicial duel with that guy unless you were!
Also, one of the duellists was required to throw a weapon to begin the duel in that time and place. A purpose made duelling sword wouldn't fall apart like an Indian wall hanger so its actually a good idea in context. |
well i guess then the tang ISNT affixed crucially to the pommel. like most normal swords are, for example my practical norman has a mean ass tea cozy pommel. which if i threw at you would hurt, except since thats what the tangs peened over exactly 1 second laer my sword would fall apart wih the blade dropping onto my foot.
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: |
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AFAIK, there are some original swords (both singlehanders and bastards) with rivet hole/s in the tangs, which are somewhat wider than average. This'd allow for a dismountable pommel without weakening the hilt, and IF the tang is not only wider, but somewhat thicker than average, the resulting pommel-less sword would be still more or less balanced. Also, I never really understood the mostly modern idea of using the pommel to hold the hilt together...
The other neat thing about Gladiatoria is that it shows quite a few of those vertically striped breastplates. (first image, left side. Sharp lines and rivets hint at a multi-plate construction - compare that with the guy on the right, who has the same shape and arcs on the breastplate, but the arcs are drawn with softer lines hinting at fluting) I always loved those...
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James Millard
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Reece, if I could ask, where did you find those pictures? I've had a (pretty brief) look online for scans of the Gladiatoria, but all I could find were low-quality, black-and-white scans. Is there a collection of better images out there?
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William P
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Bodorics wrote: | AFAIK, there are some original swords (both singlehanders and bastards) with rivet hole/s in the tangs, which are somewhat wider than average. This'd allow for a dismountable pommel without weakening the hilt, and IF the tang is not only wider, but somewhat thicker than average, the resulting pommel-less sword would be still more or less balanced. Also, I never really understood the mostly modern idea of using the pommel to hold the hilt together...
The other neat thing about Gladiatoria is that it shows quite a few of those vertically striped breastplates. (first image, left side. Sharp lines and rivets hint at a multi-plate construction - compare that with the guy on the right, who has the same shape and arcs on the breastplate, but the arcs are drawn with softer lines hinting at fluting) I always loved those... |
well its quite simple really. as a way of hlping keep everything as one piece the tang, for example of many western swords including my own hanwei practical norman sword passes through a whle in the pommel and is peened OVER The pommel. so if you remove the pommel, then there is no tension being delivered by the peening. and thus everything has now room to fall off. unless tangs are helso party held in place by friction against the walls of the grip like japanese blades
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget glue.
If someone glues the gavel on with a strong adhesive (i.e. casein glue) and uses a threaded pommel it's no problem removing it to use as a projectile, except that it changes the balance of the blade. In fact it can add some serious blade presence for heavier cuts, though sacrificing finesse and return speed.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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Ushio Kawana
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Mick Jarvis
Location: Australia Joined: 18 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | unless tangs are helso party held in place by friction against the walls of the grip like japanese blades |
Japanese blades are pinned to the the tsuka and thats what holds it all together, usually 2 bamboo pins
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Gottfried P. Doerler
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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phuuu.
thats difficult, i do not want to discredit the old masters, but i also think some things are pure fantasy.
the same with leonardo da vinci. he surely was a universal genius, despite half of his technical inventiones would never work.
or talhoffers "new" siege technikes, never would this work, and probably nobody ever tried these crazy folding drawbridges on weels with spikes............
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well in the same image I linked there is a tortouise type thing that looks exactly like the one in talhoffers 1456 and they are by different artists.
E Pluribus Unum
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Curl wrote: | | Well in the same image I linked there is a tortouise type thing that looks exactly like the one in talhoffers 1456 and they are by different artists. |
That's because they are both copied from an earlier work, Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis, not because anyone actually ever built one.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds perfectly, reasonable, but why couldn't they have built one, doesn't look much more complicated than any other bellfry type device.
E Pluribus Unum
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This is a standard topic
