Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Zornhaw training Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Greg Coffman wrote:
I don't understand the word "Zedel." It's not one that I have come across before in my studies. Could you explain it for me? Much appreciated.

Greg Coffman


This is Liechtenauer's teaching verse. It is a rhyming verse that students memorized to help them remember the techniques of the art, and is the basis of many of the various fencing treatises in the tradition.


Hi Greg

Bill G has explained the gist of it. If we want to pick nits (Germans, feel free to correct me) the zedel (or zettel in modern terms), is the surviving, written "notes" recording Liechtenauer's verses, and it is the zettel which have survived for us in writing.

The merkeverse itself simply means the verses as they may have appeared either in writing (zettel) or in an oral tradition. In HEMA terms, it is the surviving zettel or notes that we use and rely on, since no tape recordings of Liechtenauer or his disciples reciting the original verses have survived. Laughing Out Loud Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! Wink

In any case, you'll often see zedel/zettel and merkeverse used interchangeably in HEMA circles. In true, medieval scholastic tradition, fortunately these are usually accompanied by explanatory commentaries or "glossa" written by people following after (e.g. Ringeck, PvD, Kal etc). Typically, it is the glossa we often rely on most heavily to help decode Liechtenauer's rather cryptic verses.

Cheers

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS


Last edited by William Carew on Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,156

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew wrote:
Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! Wink


We may not have to imagine too hard... just look at the variations of the zettel by masters who came after Liechtenauer that added their own influence to it. For example, Peter Falkner adds some oddball things, including making the "oberhau" an additional master strike. Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right?

But does Zettel means verse, or does it mean teaching, or note, or writing? What is the translation?

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
View user's profile Send private message
William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right?


Hi Greg,

Yep, that's it.

Quote:
But does Zettel means verse,


Verse (Ger, pl) just means verses (Eng, pl), and merke can mean to remember or retain something so 'merkeverse' is usually translated as 'teaching verses' although 'remembered verses' or memory 'retention verses' (to aid in remembering or retaining the teachings) might also make sense.

'Zettel' (today) translates as note, card, bill, receipt, piece of paper etc. So from our perspective, Liechtenauer's zettel means the paper (manuscripts) that have survived containing his verse (verses).

Does that help?

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch. I think I'm clear now.

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
View user's profile Send private message
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
maybe you have found it before, but I published a new video from our training. It is now focused on zwerchau, absetzen etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

More info here: http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/en/ho...issen.html
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
View user's profile Send private message
Robert S. Haile





Joined: 16 Dec 2007

Posts: 126

PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very glad to see that kind of energy and control. Keeps me setting my own standards higher. Pleasure to watch!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.

Greg Coffman

Hi Greg,
thanks. You can see us on my another video(in my youtube channel) from tournament in Poland. But almost all our opponents got hits by the first strike. (it is difficult to see it on the video.) They used quite different style of fencing so it is not what you want to see. There is one short sequence where fence me and my colleague, but we will try to make our next video from sparring.
But it is difficult to say how good fencer is on a sparring video without possibility to check it personally.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Zornhaw training
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum