Posts: 154 Location: Australia
Sat 27 Feb, 2010 11:54 pm
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
| Greg Coffman wrote: | I don't understand the word "Zedel." It's not one that I have come across before in my studies. Could you explain it for me? Much appreciated.
Greg Coffman |
This is Liechtenauer's teaching verse. It is a rhyming verse that students memorized to help them remember the techniques of the art, and is the basis of many of the various fencing treatises in the tradition. |
Hi Greg
Bill G has explained the gist of it. If we want to pick nits (Germans, feel free to correct me) the zedel (or zettel in modern terms), is the surviving, written "notes" recording Liechtenauer's verses, and it is the zettel which have survived for us in writing.
The merkeverse itself simply means the verses as they may have appeared either in writing (zettel) or in an oral tradition. In HEMA terms, it is the surviving zettel or notes that we use and rely on, since no tape recordings of Liechtenauer or his disciples reciting the original verses have survived. :lol: Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! ;)
In any case, you'll often see zedel/zettel and merkeverse used interchangeably in HEMA circles. In true, medieval scholastic tradition, fortunately these are usually accompanied by explanatory commentaries or "glossa" written by people following after (e.g. Ringeck, PvD, Kal etc). Typically, it is the glossa we often rely on most heavily to help decode Liechtenauer's rather cryptic verses.
Cheers
Bill
Last edited by William Carew on Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 7:33 am
| William Carew wrote: |
| Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! ;) |
We may not have to imagine too hard... just look at the variations of the zettel by masters who came after Liechtenauer that added their own influence to it. For example, Peter Falkner adds some oddball things, including making the "oberhau" an additional master strike. :)
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 9:43 pm
So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right?
But does Zettel means verse, or does it mean teaching, or note, or writing? What is the translation?
Greg Coffman
Posts: 154 Location: Australia
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 10:01 pm
| Greg Coffman wrote: |
| So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right? |
Hi Greg,
Yep, that's it.
| Quote: |
| But does Zettel means verse, |
Verse (Ger, pl) just means verses (Eng, pl), and merke can mean to remember or retain something so 'merkeverse' is usually translated as 'teaching verses' although 'remembered verses' or memory 'retention verses' (to aid in remembering or retaining the teachings) might also make sense.
'Zettel' (today) translates as note, card, bill, receipt, piece of paper etc. So from our perspective, Liechtenauer's zettel means the paper (manuscripts) that have survived containing his verse (verses).
Does that help?
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Mon 01 Mar, 2010 7:19 am
Thanks a bunch. I think I'm clear now.
Greg Coffman
Posts: 7 Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:57 am
Hello,
maybe you have found it before, but I published a new video from our training. It is now focused on zwerchau, absetzen etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
More info here:
http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/en/ho...issen.html
Posts: 254 Location: Lubbock, TX
Tue 13 Jul, 2010 7:35 am
Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.
Greg Coffman
Posts: 126
Tue 13 Jul, 2010 12:21 pm
Very glad to see that kind of energy and control. Keeps me setting my own standards higher. Pleasure to watch!
Posts: 7 Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:20 am
| Greg Coffman wrote: |
Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.
Greg Coffman |
Hi Greg,
thanks. You can see us on my another video(in my youtube channel) from tournament in Poland. But almost all our opponents got hits by the first strike. (it is difficult to see it on the video.) They used quite different style of fencing so it is not what you want to see. There is one short sequence where fence me and my colleague, but we will try to make our next video from sparring.
But it is difficult to say how good fencer is on a sparring video without possibility to check it personally.
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