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William Carew




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PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Greg Coffman wrote:
I don't understand the word "Zedel." It's not one that I have come across before in my studies. Could you explain it for me? Much appreciated.

Greg Coffman


This is Liechtenauer's teaching verse. It is a rhyming verse that students memorized to help them remember the techniques of the art, and is the basis of many of the various fencing treatises in the tradition.


Hi Greg

Bill G has explained the gist of it. If we want to pick nits (Germans, feel free to correct me) the zedel (or zettel in modern terms), is the surviving, written "notes" recording Liechtenauer's verses, and it is the zettel which have survived for us in writing.

The merkeverse itself simply means the verses as they may have appeared either in writing (zettel) or in an oral tradition. In HEMA terms, it is the surviving zettel or notes that we use and rely on, since no tape recordings of Liechtenauer or his disciples reciting the original verses have survived. Laughing Out Loud Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! Wink

In any case, you'll often see zedel/zettel and merkeverse used interchangeably in HEMA circles. In true, medieval scholastic tradition, fortunately these are usually accompanied by explanatory commentaries or "glossa" written by people following after (e.g. Ringeck, PvD, Kal etc). Typically, it is the glossa we often rely on most heavily to help decode Liechtenauer's rather cryptic verses.

Cheers

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS


Last edited by William Carew on Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew wrote:
Although, it's fun to imagine what the original oral verses might sound like today had they been passed on in an unbroken oral tradition - imagine a 600 year old game of Chinese whispers! Wink


We may not have to imagine too hard... just look at the variations of the zettel by masters who came after Liechtenauer that added their own influence to it. For example, Peter Falkner adds some oddball things, including making the "oberhau" an additional master strike. Happy

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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right?

But does Zettel means verse, or does it mean teaching, or note, or writing? What is the translation?

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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William Carew




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
So for example, in Goliath there is the zettel, Liechtenauer's teachings, and then the gloss, the explanation and interpretation of the zettel. Is that right?


Hi Greg,

Yep, that's it.

Quote:
But does Zettel means verse,


Verse (Ger, pl) just means verses (Eng, pl), and merke can mean to remember or retain something so 'merkeverse' is usually translated as 'teaching verses' although 'remembered verses' or memory 'retention verses' (to aid in remembering or retaining the teachings) might also make sense.

'Zettel' (today) translates as note, card, bill, receipt, piece of paper etc. So from our perspective, Liechtenauer's zettel means the paper (manuscripts) that have survived containing his verse (verses).

Does that help?

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch. I think I'm clear now.

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Anton Kohutovic




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
maybe you have found it before, but I published a new video from our training. It is now focused on zwerchau, absetzen etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

More info here: http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/en/ho...issen.html
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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Robert S. Haile





Joined: 16 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very glad to see that kind of energy and control. Keeps me setting my own standards higher. Pleasure to watch!
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Anton Kohutovic




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
Another excellent video. But when are the sparring videos getting here? It's great training to work up the techniques at full speed. But the moment of truth is seeing the decisions made in the split-second of sparring.

Greg Coffman

Hi Greg,
thanks. You can see us on my another video(in my youtube channel) from tournament in Poland. But almost all our opponents got hits by the first strike. (it is difficult to see it on the video.) They used quite different style of fencing so it is not what you want to see. There is one short sequence where fence me and my colleague, but we will try to make our next video from sparring.
But it is difficult to say how good fencer is on a sparring video without possibility to check it personally.
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