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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: Do I have an authentic Falchion? |
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I may have acquired what could be an authentic medievel Falchion. It looks blacksmith made, and very old. Is there someone there who would be willing to comment on the attached photos and give me their opinion? I realize there are many repros and modern made knives, swords and weapons that look very close to original... but I need to ask.
This came from a private collection that also had an authentic Viking sword and 17th century armored helmet and other items from a since deceased serious European collector.
The entire length is about 34" and the blade is about 26"
I am not a professional sword collector, and my background primarily involves antique firearms.
This is an amazing site, and I am looking forward to enriching my knowledge of antique edged arms here.
Thank you Forum members!
-Greg
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Did you happen to get this from "goodgolfer" on ebay?
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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I did. Is there something I should know about him or this item?
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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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More info:
It is very sharp, but does not look recently done... I can't see any grinding lines near the edge, but it is as sharp as I would want any blade to be. And the edge just tapers like a wedge, with a slight rounding into the edge. It weighs about 4+ pounds (approx 2kg). There are no markings that I can see other than a lot of dings and very old nicks. Very aged pitting in various parts of the blade. The grip is wood, very dark, almost polished smooth from handling it would seem.
I read somewhere that they have only found a handful of these surviving. If this proves to be authentic, then perhaps I have something rather valuable. How can I get this appraised?
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Greg,
The active rust and grip condition are inconsistent with other apparent corrosion and loss. Unless the piece was quite costly (and even then) you likely have a piece that was misrepresented. Nothing can be said for sure from pictures but I'd want a whole lot more than those and a seller's word for it.
Local museums and universities can sometimes be helpful.
My vote is a fake but that means little. It is just not something I would have bought without a whole lot of study and assurance. If the seller has an ample inspection period and return policy, you may wish to take advantage of those.
Cheers
GC
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Blaz Berlec
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 2:02 am Post subject: |
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To me, it looks like a modern antiquated Czech replica. Sorry, but I have never seen a medieval tool or weapon so crudely made. Even simple every day objects were finely crafted, and so such a large steel weapon would certainly be worth a few hours of grinding - price of workmanship was low, price of material was much higher. In short, most metal objects from medieval ages don't look "blacksmith made" - even simlpe objects like keys or hinges.
2 kg seems also too much for falchion of such length.
Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Steve L.
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Yes, looks like the "rustic style" of "weapons" i know from middle age events (we call it "Oktoberfests in tights"  ) in germany, here in an antiquated variant.
I can see the czech "craftmansship"!
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Blaz Berlec wrote: | To me, it looks like a modern antiquated Czech replica. Sorry, but I have never seen a medieval tool or weapon so crudely made. Even simple every day objects were finely crafted, and so such a large steel weapon would certainly be worth a few hours of grinding - price of workmanship was low, price of material was much higher. In short, most metal objects from medieval ages don't look "blacksmith made" - even simlpe objects like keys or hinges.
2 kg seems also too much for falchion of such length. |
I concur.
In czech republic there is a whole ring of fakers who build perfect copies of ww2 german pratroopers helmets and SS helmets (who sell for some thousand dollars), I didn't know of medieval swords being copied but likely it is your case, since it was bought off ebay.
there are ebay sellers who make a living promising innocent customers marvellous businness occasions on antiques that constantly reveal themselves as more or less goodly made fakes.
Ebay is the premiere source for fake antiques, it was years ago, at its beginning, that it was possible to strike good deals from honest sellers who were really giving away what they had found in their house.
Your sword could even be true, but somebody seems to know a lot bad about the seller, which means that your options of having a real antique areprobably close to zero.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Brown wrote: | More info:
It is very sharp, but does not look recently done... I can't see any grinding lines near the edge, but it is as sharp as I would want any blade to be. And the edge just tapers like a wedge, with a slight rounding into the edge. It weighs about 4+ pounds (approx 2kg). There are no markings that I can see other than a lot of dings and very old nicks. Very aged pitting in various parts of the blade. The grip is wood, very dark, almost polished smooth from handling it would seem.
I read somewhere that they have only found a handful of these surviving. If this proves to be authentic, then perhaps I have something rather valuable. How can I get this appraised? |
The conyers falchion is described here.
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm
Your is more slender, however it weights 2 kilos, look at an original weight: 1400 grams.
Length is about the same (one inch less for yours, but your blade is narrower)
How thick is your blade on the spine, center and near the edge?
This falchion seems to be also too weighty, another sign of being a odern replica.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Given the seller, I'd say it's more likely this is a product of a Hollywood (or other) prop house. Keep in mind, the seller did not misrepresent this item and, given his track record for sales, did not charge outrageously for it.
All points made here are valid, but for me, the best indication of its non-ancient nature is that it's much too heavy for an authentic version of this weapon type.
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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all for all the response. The blade is 3/16" thick all along the length until it tapers to the point. The point made about medieval labor being cheaper than iron was especially interesting to me. Things certainly have changed today. I have contacted the seller about a return. He did NOT misrepresent it, explained it very well and the price was not outrageous. In fact, these are HIS photos from the eBay listing. But $300. is too much for a fake, when I can get perfectly authentic replicas in Damascus steel for 1/2 that.... if I were interested in a fake.
Thanks you all for your comments!
-Greg
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Brown wrote: | | Thank you all for all the response. The blade is 3/16" thick all along the length until it tapers to the point. The point made about medieval labor being cheaper than iron was especially interesting to me. Things certainly have changed today. I have contacted the seller about a return. He did NOT misrepresent it, explained it very well and the price was not outrageous. In fact, these are HIS photos from the eBay listing. But $300. is too much for a fake, when I can get perfectly authentic replicas in Damascus steel for 1/2 that.... if I were interested in a fake. |
Where can you get a 'perfectly authentic' replica in damascus for 150?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | | Where can you get a 'perfectly authentic' replica in damascus for 150? |
My thoughts exactly.
MRL, CAS Iberia or such (or vendors who carry their products, to be exact) may claim that's what they're selling, but it's just marketing hype.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Greg, "goodgolfer" states that he knows nothing what so ever about this stuff and doesn't ask close to "real deal" prices for the items he sells. Once in a while he comes up with a legit item (its actually been a long time since i've seen one offered by him) and i've bought one or two of them from him, but this item is typical of his offerings otherwise. It is a reproduction, done up to look old, that being said it may in fact have been made back in the 1920-30's for the antique collectors market. Its not a bad looking piece, it looks old and may in fact be an "antique" in its own right given when he says his uncle bought all this stuff(1920-30's) and you certainly didn't overpay based on modern market prices, especially when you add in the time and materials it would take to "antique" it out yourself (look at some of the awsome project threads Sean's got on here where he's antiqued out MRL pices. they look great, but he puts alot of time and attention into them to achive those results). I can understand you being dissapointed that its not original but its a good looking item with some age of its own I think.
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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I have asked for a return and refund. It is clear from the feedback I've received that this is a modern piece. Someone said it may indeed be "antique", as in 100+ years old, but certainly not medieval. The question is whether $350. is a fair price. I love the feel of this piece, and would keep it if it was worth $350. But not if its just some $75. cheap fake.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Brown wrote: | | Yes, I have asked for a return and refund. It is clear from the feedback I've received that this is a modern piece. Someone said it may indeed be "antique", as in 100+ years old, but certainly not medieval. The question is whether $350. is a fair price. I love the feel of this piece, and would keep it if it was worth $350. But not if its just some $75. cheap fake. |
300 $ is a heap of money fror a blacksmith made copy that would be worth no more than 50 - 70 in tourist junk shops.
With some more you can buy an albion squire line real sword for real use.
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R Smith
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| Posted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Brown wrote: | | Yes, I have asked for a return and refund. It is clear from the feedback I've received that this is a modern piece. Someone said it may indeed be "antique", as in 100+ years old, but certainly not medieval. The question is whether $350. is a fair price. I love the feel of this piece, and would keep it if it was worth $350. But not if its just some $75. cheap fake. |
Would you truly have thought that you could get an authentic medieval falchion for $350? A decently made modern replica would and does cost more then that. Reputable antique dealers can be found in the links section of this site. They should give you a firm grasp of the normal price of authentic pieces.
If you love the feel of this piece then $350 is a worthwhile price both for the sword and the lesson learned. If you think that you are ripping someone off by paying a crazy low price, chances are it is you that is getting ripped off.
"Those with wisdom loathe the one forced to defend." - Liechtenauer
Ars Gladii
Detroit, MI
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Greg Brown
Location: Greenbrae, CA Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I had no idea what it was when I bid. I knew nothing about falchions or their history. I just really liked it, and his items seemed at least honestly presented. It was purely an impulse bid. Then, after it arrived, I decided to see what the heck it was, and suddenly this whole dialogue began.
So yes, $350. is an okay price for something like this if I really like it. This thing feels like it could cut through a desk.
FYI, I have found what seems like a legitimate carbon 14 dating lab in the Ukraine that will test small samples for $100. USD. Here is there website, if anyone is interested:
http://www2.ldc.net/~mbuz/c14.htm
Thanks again for everyone's input!
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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With three or four days at the grinder you could make a real falchion out of it.
You could try to distally taper the blade while polishing it, so losing a discrete weight while gaining nimbleness.
then you could clean the cross, after that you should decide for the balance and reshape the pommel accordingly.
All this after disassembly and likely annealing (if it is heat treated at all), obviously.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Brown wrote: | | FYI, I have found what seems like a legitimate carbon 14 dating lab in the Ukraine that will test small samples for $100. USD. Here is there website, if anyone is interested: |
Carbon-14 dating only works on items that contain ogranic material, ie, things that were living at one time or have ingedients of such things. In terms of swords, carbon-14 dating would only work on objects that utlized charcoal or some other organic material in their creation. In the case of a grip, an authentic sword would likely have had its grip replaced over time and so it's not really a good indication of the overall sword's age.
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