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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Burns wrote:
I totally agree with you and he has done a very fine job of it too,


Absolutely. Paul's site is the only one of it's kind, and one I was very pleased to see. Happy

P.S. Since you made the car analogy, I have several Chevy's (Windlass) and a Ford (Chen), now I'm waiting for a Mercedes from Arms & Armor. I wonder if Craig can fit a sunroof in my GBS? Cool Laughing Out Loud
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Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional



Location: Tennessee
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:

The Generation 2 Black Prince is an example of that. Near a pound heavier than the A&A example, I'm hard pressed to find where all that extra weight is.

Gen2 sprouted new patterns from their history of "steel on steel"
swords as seen early on at www.imperialweapons.com They may bear watching but right now they still seem to be off the mark.

GC



I have been taken in all that has been posted on Generation 2 and we have had several changes. Not all sites have the new stats but they are aware of the changes.

Many you can see on our site.

Here is the route we taking - We do want the swords historical, but at the same time very durable. So to do so yes our swords will be a little heavier than others that are considered historical but they will not be the crow bars I have read stated.

In doing so they will still have the durable factor in each sword.

I am looking for some one well qualified from here to do a review on our swords. I have talked to Nathan and he is graciously seeking some one to do so.

Thank you.

I am looking forward to the Generation 2 being the company every one is watching.

Clyde
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posts: 630

PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It should be nice to see weapons in that price range that aren't, as you say, crowbars. Some of the ones that I bought for those prices about ten years ago could have served admirably in that function. I believe I still have one or two tucked away somewhere. I wonder, though, if you might clarify one of your comments.

Clyde Hollis wrote:
Here is the route we taking - We do want the swords historical, but at the same time very durable. So to do so yes our swords will be a little heavier than others that are considered historical but they will not be the crow bars I have read stated.


Are you saying that historical swords (and by extension, replica swords of equivalent weight and contruction) weren't durable enough? Or perhaps that you wish to add mass to make yours more durable than the originals? Or that making a sword of more historically accurate dimensions would push your swords past their target price? Or even that, for some of the specific ways in which people may use the blades outside of what was normally expected of a sword, the additional mass was deemed necessary to maintain structural integrity?

In any event, I shall eagerly await the forthcoming reviews and look forward to handling one of your new blades, should the opportunity present itself.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." óThucydides
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Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional



Location: Tennessee
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Barris wrote:
I wonder, though, if you might clarify one of your comments.

Clyde Hollis wrote:
Here is the route we taking - We do want the swords historical, but at the same time very durable. So to do so yes our swords will be a little heavier than others that are considered historical but they will not be the crow bars I have read stated.




To clarify what I was getting at is this. We are going to make our more to the weight of the originals and to along the line of wight, feel and balance of well known replicas. But, ours will have a little more weight (slightly) for the re-enactors who would use our swords as many are doing so now. Would anyone take a $400.00 to $500.00 sword and cut with it or do re-enacting with it? I would hope not.

So to retain the strength and not have the wobbling that would happen with a thinner and lighter sword ours will weigh a little more than the higher end swords. Just a little.

I hope this helps to clarify.

I also hope that the situation of you hold one comes to fruition.

Clyde
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Clyde,

I'm glad you made it here and have been in touch with Nathan. also that a bit more and better information has been shared and corrected. The listed weights really had me scratching my head last year.

I have to say, though, that a great many of us don't give a second thought to cutting with higher end swords. Some (like me) are actually quite abusive (at times) with more expensive swords.

It may make sense to some that a heavier sword is somehow inherently less prone to damage but that, imo, is not always the case. Some swords were more rigid than others for a variety of reasons.

I look forward to more reviews and the continued evolution this line is showing.

Cheers

GC
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Would anyone take a $400.00 to $500.00 sword and cut with it ......


Quite frequently with swords far more expensive than that. However, it does make a big difference when appropriate cutting materials are used. If one wants to chop firewood that's a different story.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

quote

Would anyone take a $400.00 to $500.00 sword and ... do re-enacting with it?

I would. I have bought swords that cost that much or more from Tinker and Gus Trim that are specifically designed for reenactment and stage combat. Yes, they have to be more durable than originals, because they lead a much tougher and more abused life. The trick is to create that durablility while preserving the handling qualities of the original Medieval swords. I'm willing to pay the extra money to get that kind of blunt.

I also have an Albion Maestro on order. When those swords finally come out, we shall see how many are willing to pay a little extra.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clyde Hollis wrote:
Would anyone take a $400.00 to $500.00 sword and cut with it or do re-enacting with it? I would hope not.

As Patrick mentioned above, the simple answer is yes. Many of us, Patrick included, cut with swords costing $2000-$3000. When I did re-enacting, I would routinely be wearing in excess of $5,000 on my body, not even including my sword.

The $400-500 range is right there with Gus Trim's offerings and these are routinely used by their owners for cutting. Albion's Next Generation swors are at a quite a bit higher price point and are routinely used for cutting by their owners.

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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clyde Hollis wrote:
Would anyone take a $400.00 to $500.00 sword and cut with it or do re-enacting with it? I would hope not.


I see everyone has beaten me to what I was about to say, but I'll say it anyway. The swords currently on my wish list range from $620 to $2900, with a few in the middle around $1000 to $1500. Whenever I get around to actually buying any of them, I intend to cut early and often. I actually feel better about cutting with a more expensive weapon, assuming that I'm confident in the skills of the makers. There are too many dojo legends about cheap weapons breaking during cutting, as well as examples like Bob and Lloyd's Cold Steel grosse messers.

However, that does not extend to blatant misuse of the weapon, such as chopping wood or edge on edge swordplay.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." óThucydides
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Paul Southren




Location: Adelaide
Joined: 20 Nov 2005

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that with the way these swords are built, you needn't worry about them breaking during cutting... Wink

I suppose that what it all boils down to (geez, I sound like Alanis Morisette! Eek! ) is that many beginners don't have or can't justify such a high budget for their first purchase, and are looking for a good beater that they can 'cut their teeth on' (not literally of course!).

With a sword in the $200 to $300 price range, you can try your hand at customization, give it a good thrashing or simply get the feel of handling a 'real' sword without having to spend a whole lot of money. Some people will, in time no doubt 'graduate' to a more expensive sword - but may well still use the original Gen2 sword for heavy duty cutting practice (because no matter how nice the steel is, if you use it regularily its going to get scratched up - right?).

Others will be quite happy where they are (or simply can't afford to spend more) - but still want to enjoy this great hobby of ours...

Anyway, what I am really interested in is seeing a review of a Gen2 sword by someone more experienced than myself (which is probably 99% of all of the rest of you guys posting in this thread), with special attention paid to the swords weight, handling and durability. Sure, they might not be as nice as some of the more expensive swords - but from a functional point of view, I am sure that with these new changes Generation 2 can establish itself as a 'baseline' sword with a better fit and finish than other swords in this (low) price point that will appeal to a great many people.

Hope this makes sense.

Respectfully,

Paul Southren
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Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional



Location: Tennessee
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Southren wrote:

I am sure that with these new changes Generation 2 can establish itself as a 'baseline' sword with a better fit and finish than other swords in this (low) price point that will appeal to a great many people.



Thanks Paul.
I am hoping to be the miedium price range. Not the low price range. There are other maunfacturers out there that are selling at the low price range. We want to be above that and offer the product that meets that.
I am hoping the the gentlemen Nathan e-mailed me who will do the review contact me so we can get this started. I am relay looking forward to it.
But as always I still look for ways to improve.

But I want to thank all who have posted on this Generation 2 review. I have read each one. I see many will use a $400.00 to $500.00 and even higher price swords to cut with. But knowing that you can make a bad cut and ruin the best katana. It would happen with the high price medieval swords as well, and that would scare me. But who am I to say.

Again Thank you,

Clyde
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Paul Southren




Location: Adelaide
Joined: 20 Nov 2005

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clyde Hollis wrote:
Paul Southren wrote:

I am sure that with these new changes Generation 2 can establish itself as a 'baseline' sword with a better fit and finish than other swords in this (low) price point that will appeal to a great many people.



Thanks Paul.
I am hoping to be the miedium price range. Not the low price range. There are other maunfacturers out there that are selling at the low price range. We want to be above that and offer the product that meets that.


I suppose 'low price range' is all relative...

At the lowest end of the spectrum you've got the cheap Pakistan and Chinese stainless steel wallhangers.. (nuff said)

Above that, there are 'low priced' swords in the $100 to $300 price range whose quality vary dramatically. The worst are soft as butter 'carbon steel' with pencil thin tangs. Most people here would probably agree that the better ones in this low price range are made by either Windlass or Hanwei.

Generation 2 obviously started out in a different part of the $100 to $300 price range spectrum entirely - in other words as overbuilt 'crowbar' blades that could take a telephone pole down (i.e. similar to Starfire, that gent at the Ren faires whose name is totally eluding me at the moment and to a lesser extent cold steel, etc). The evolution of these swords has seen them move up the ladder to somewhere between the better Hanwei models and Angus Trim, but still with just a bit of the old 'tough sword' that (in my opinion) makes them a whole lot of fun - and very reliable for the beginner.

So yes, (ramble mode off) I guess you could call them medium! (though the price range I am sure many people here would still call 'low'. Bearing in mind that many of the nasty 'wanna be' functional swords have a similar price tag to gen2, but don't come close in terms of fit, finish, durability, handling and yeah - just dont come close! Happy )

It's all relative... But in this 'low' price range (as everyone obviously knows by now) I think they are really, really great 'bang for your buck'.

Hope this kind of makes sense.
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J. Hargis




Location: Pacific Palisades, California
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PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Generation 2 swords         Reply with quote

This is an old thread, hence a lot of time has passed. I'm curious what myArmoury members now think of Generation 2 swords.

I have taken note of Jean Thibodeau's review where he expresses some satisfaction with Generation 2's Dordogne Sword here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10809

Some basic questions to get rolling:

- Has there been significant improvements in Generation 2's build quality?

- Has Generation 2 become more historically accurate?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jon

A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I own a pair of the type XVI riding sword and am very pleased w/them.

The handles were too thick but I thinned and recovered them.Now they feel great in hand.Now I just need to attempt to rework the scabbards.

http://www.imperialcoinc.com/Shared/IP-705.html


It is based on this:


XVI.4 Once owned by Ewart Oakeshott, Douglas Ash, and then Howard Curtis
This is a very small and efficient knightly riding sword, only having a 21" long blade. It dates circa 1300-25 and is in nearly perfect condition, despite being a river-find.

(excerpt and pic from an article on XVI s written by Chad Arnow)

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, their new black prince looks good. I haven't had a chance to hold on in real life yet though. The riding and henry the V swords are both pretty decent in handling in anycase...but the materials in all their swords are still pretty bad. The older black prince and lucerene are still okayish swords...but honestly, they held still while everyone (and I hate to bring them up...but even DSA) got better. As such, they have kinda become a non-contender honestly in their price range.
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J. Hargis




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PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
...but honestly, they held still while everyone (and I hate to bring them up...but even DSA) got better. As such, they have kinda become a non-contender honestly in their price range.


That's pretty much what I'm interested in here; how have they progressed in the years since this thread was created. Apparently P. Cha has a negative opinion of their progress, or lack of. However, there seems to be instances where Gen 2 has created pleasing pieces, see Jean Thibodeau's review and other recent comments.

In fact, on the basis of Jean's review I recently ordered the Dordogne, but clearly the suede grip is a bit peculiar. I think Jean's remake of the grip was nice. It gave the sword a entirely new flavor. I'll see soon enough.

Heretofore, I see some pieces in the Gen 2 line as acceptable project swords, a la Del Tin, who I feels get away with murder for such poor pommel casting. But that's another topic.

Jon

A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
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R. Kolick





Joined: 04 Feb 2012

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iíve been around swords my entire life but they have been original katanas and recently I have started looking at European swords and because I donít know much anything about modern steel qualities and what a good modern reproduction should be like so these swords are invaluable to learn from because they allow beginners like myself to appreciate the quality and historic accuracy of the "higher level" models as we improve our knowledge and work our way through the ranks from beaters to the Albionís and A&A and yes you can start with the best blades but you canít really appreciate the difference between a windlass and an Albion unless youíve had both so while I would rather have a nice Albion or a custom sword if you donít have the knowledge or budget to justify investing in a high quality and expensive swords these "mid-level" swords are a godsend because they allow you to start with something good but allow you to not be worried about destroying a $1000+ sword because you want to customize or cut with your sword. That being said Iím looking forward to seeing Gen2's evolution and what you will come up with in the future.
p.s. my only issue with Gen2 other than weight is that the grips on the swords I have held have been too thick just a suggestion
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




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PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
I've communicated with Paul, the owner of that site, via email many times, and I've even written a couple of reviews (Shrewsbury and Dadao) for the site. Paul is very up front about the purpose of his site: to provide some basic guidelines and reviews in order to help folks who can't afford or don't want to spend the cash for higher end swords, but want something they can actually use for backyard cutting, etc. In talking with Paul, he said simply that he found reviews of lower priced but still functional swords sorely lacking on the internet, and he wanted to change that. What's wrong with that? Happy


... I'M feeling ya', Scott. Just recently we've seen Albion raise prices again. In my mind that
proposes a couple reactions by a customer : 1. You take that bigger chunk of money and go
to a custom swordmaker, or 2. Perhaps cut your losses and look at less expensive options.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Hargis wrote:
P. Cha wrote:
...but honestly, they held still while everyone (and I hate to bring them up...but even DSA) got better. As such, they have kinda become a non-contender honestly in their price range.


That's pretty much what I'm interested in here; how have they progressed in the years since this thread was created. Apparently P. Cha has a negative opinion of their progress, or lack of. However, there seems to be instances where Gen 2 has created pleasing pieces, see Jean Thibodeau's review and other recent comments.

In fact, on the basis of Jean's review I recently ordered the Dordogne, but clearly the suede grip is a bit peculiar. I think Jean's remake of the grip was nice. It gave the sword a entirely new flavor. I'll see soon enough.

Heretofore, I see some pieces in the Gen 2 line as acceptable project swords, a la Del Tin, who I feels get away with murder for such poor pommel casting. But that's another topic.

Jon


Well...I mean their better designed swords are still not a bad sword...it's just that there are better cheaper options out there now. It's like what happened to cheness in the japanese sword market. 6 years ago, they were one of the top recommended cheap japanese swords because they were the best you could get for the money. They have not changed since then...and there are companies that make 80 dollar katanas that are better then what cheness has for 300. The cheness swords are still just as good as 6 years ago...but I would tell people to get the musashi katana over the cheness now. Gen2 swords are still as good as they were back then...I just recommend other swords these days.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sun 20 May, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. Kolick wrote:
Iíve been around swords my entire life but they have been original katanas and recently I have started looking at European swords and because I donít know much anything about modern steel qualities and what a good modern reproduction should be like so these swords are invaluable to learn from because they allow beginners like myself to appreciate the quality and historic accuracy of the "higher level" models as we improve our knowledge and work our way through the ranks from beaters to the Albionís and A&A and yes you can start with the best blades but you canít really appreciate the difference between a windlass and an Albion unless youíve had both so while I would rather have a nice Albion or a custom sword if you donít have the knowledge or budget to justify investing in a high quality and expensive swords these "mid-level" swords are a godsend because they allow you to start with something good but allow you to not be worried about destroying a $1000+ sword because you want to customize or cut with your sword. That being said Iím looking forward to seeing Gen2's evolution and what you will come up with in the future.
p.s. my only issue with Gen2 other than weight is that the grips on the swords I have held have been too thick just a suggestion


I have to say this kind of approach always makes me scratch my head. It really strikes me as false economy. I've never owned a top end sports car, but I don't have to do so to realize they'd leave my vehicle in the dust. I wouldn't have to spend time with a paint by numbers set to know my results wouldn't compare to something hanging in the Met. Buying inferior products doesn't lead to an appreciation of quality in and of itself. If a decision is based on economic limitations or simply a lack of desire to own anything better that's fine (these things are only curiosities after all), but masking it with false logic is a bit pointless.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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