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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Thu 08 Jun, 2023 5:47 pm Post subject: Sinewed wood crossbows? |
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Of the 9 extant wood crossbow laths I am aware of, 2 are backed, one of which (Royal Armouries Sweden) is definitely sinewed, the other (Alhambra) may be sinewed, or might only be backed with sinew but translations of the Spanish are not perfect . Sinewing offers significant advantages for crossbows but I am not aware of references in medieval texts to sinewed wooden crossbows. It could be that translators only picked up on crossbows and didn’t expound further, or they were sufficiently commonplace as to not be described separately from other wooden crossbows Does anyone know of any texts/sources mentioning adding sinew to wooden laths, or alternatively any papers or articles on the subject?
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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F. Rodel
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jun, 2023 6:14 am Post subject: |
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In some Italian sources of the fourteenth century, there are references of "baliste de nervo", i.e. crossbows of sinew. Probably these crossbows were, so to speak, something in between wooden and horn crossbows.
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jun, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: |
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That’s really useful.! I don’t suppose you could give any references to this?
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Ryan S.
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jun, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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In that instance, the string caught in the nock and split a section of the lath which was glued back in and bound with a sinew wrap. He wrapped the other end as well just to be safe. Sinew is amazing stuff, I’ve seen it described as natural fibreglass by one modern bowyer.
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Thu 27 Feb, 2025 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Been a while but recently I found a translation of some of the regulations concerning the use of sinew on round wood crossbow laths written. by the guild of crossbow makers in the late 13th century. The translation is by S.Manning and on the website “ageofdatini”. The existence of rules controlling the quality of sinew application possibly written before 1270 is a bit of a game changer
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Thu 27 Feb, 2025 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew V wrote: | | Been a while but recently I found a translation of some of the regulations concerning the use of sinew on round wood crossbow laths written. by the guild of crossbow makers in the late 13th century. The translation is by S.Manning and on the website “ageofdatini”. The existence of rules controlling the quality of sinew application possibly written before 1270 is a bit of a game changer |
Glad people are finding it helpful! I am not likely to make any crossbows anytime soon.
There are ballistae de nervo in Hewitt's Antient Armour and Weapons in Europe from 1860 and a 2003 book by Elisabeth Crouzet-Pavan. I think the volume The Cutting Edge by Barry Molloy talks about ancient sinewed wood bows.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri 28 Feb, 2025 1:40 am Post subject: |
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So useful! How’s that for poor grammar? Wooden crossbows and wood/sinew crossbows are my current obsession. The insights into correct procedure have changed my own methods- I notice in the 13th item you leave the term”scanellum”, I’m not entirely sure but it might translate to slot or groove?? I guess it maybe a unit of measure for the area around the slot, which I imagine is perhaps the centre of the bow around the bolt groove ?
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri 28 Feb, 2025 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the reading list, a quick search found Hewitt available at project Guetenberg . I spent a very pleasant morning reading his work. Really enjoyed myself 
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2025 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew V wrote: | | So useful! How’s that for poor grammar? Wooden crossbows and wood/sinew crossbows are my current obsession. The insights into correct procedure have changed my own methods- I notice in the 13th item you leave the term”scanellum”, I’m not entirely sure but it might translate to slot or groove?? I guess it maybe a unit of measure for the area around the slot, which I imagine is perhaps the centre of the bow around the bolt groove ? |
Andrew, my Italian and especially my Medieval Venetian are not very good, so I would need to make time and explore some dictionaries to try and clarify that word. Many scholars of European crossbows are from German-speaking Europe or the Low Countries but maybe a Genoese will chip in?
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 346
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| Posted: Thu 06 Mar, 2025 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Intrigued, I had a search around and found
ant. venez. (sec. XIII) scanellum 'pezzo di legno scanellato per unire l'arco al teniere della balestra' (GLI 509)
My very limited Italian and online translation suggests
Scanellum - Piece of fluted wood for fixing the bow to the tiller of a crossbow.
I found this in SCAMONE «CUSCINETTO» DI DELIZIE
Remo Bracchi
Aevum, Anno 72, Fasc. 3 (Settembre-Dicembre 1998), pp. 801-816 (16 pages)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20860890 (this is free to view on jstor)
Its p. 808. Beware - this is dense text in Italian with limited concession to readability.
Hope this is useful
Anthony Clipsom
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue 11 Mar, 2025 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | | Andrew V wrote: | | So useful! How’s that for poor grammar? Wooden crossbows and wood/sinew crossbows are my current obsession. The insights into correct procedure have changed my own methods- I notice in the 13th item you leave the term”scanellum”, I’m not entirely sure but it might translate to slot or groove?? I guess it maybe a unit of measure for the area around the slot, which I imagine is perhaps the centre of the bow around the bolt groove ? |
Andrew, my Italian and especially my Medieval Venetian are not very good, so I would need to make time and explore some dictionaries to try and clarify that word. Many scholars of European crossbows are from German-speaking Europe or the Low Countries but maybe a Genoese will chip in? |
I wrenched my back a little bit and was confined to the sofa for the weekend. I deep dived through a forum I discovered by accident called The Armour Archive, Sean, I think the site contains your translations back in 2020, with notes- absolutely fascinating- and in the wider discussion I think you ( http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...e#p2850232 ) agree there with Anthony about a mounting plate. Thanks both, this is a completely new concept to me, every day is a school day!
The concept of a mounting plate would solve a major issue with round wood laths, namely that the weight of the stirrup can make the lath rotate in it’s binding, lifting the string out of the nut causing a misfire- it has happened several times on my lockbow- and a misfire can shatter a wood lath…..
Anthony, thank you for the further reading, I look forward to exploring some more!
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 12 Mar, 2025 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew V wrote: | I wrenched my back a little bit and was confined to the sofa for the weekend. I deep dived through a forum I discovered by accident called The Armour Archive, Sean, I think the site contains your translations back in 2020, with notes- absolutely fascinating- and in the wider discussion I think you ( http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...e#p2850232 ) agree there with Anthony about a mounting plate. Thanks both, this is a completely new concept to me, every day is a school day!
The concept of a mounting plate would solve a major issue with round wood laths, namely that the weight of the stirrup can make the lath rotate in it’s binding, lifting the string out of the nut causing a misfire- it has happened several times on my lockbow- and a misfire can shatter a wood lath…..
Anthony, thank you for the further reading, I look forward to exploring some more! |
You're welcome! I think some of the German books have summaries of this rule but I have never seen a full translation let alone an English translation. So I put some of my lockdown time to the task.
When you talk about a mounting plate, do you mean at the front end of the tiller to receive the bowstave?
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Andrew V
Location: Wales, UK Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2025 7:21 am Post subject: |
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So the belly of the bow (the side facing the shooter) becomes rounded as you carve it to a shape where it bends well. This round shape fits into a round socket on the tiller (stock). It is impossible to prevent the round bow rotating in this round socket and you constantly have to twist the bow back into line. Normally you leave the centre of the bow flat to prevent this but that can impact on how the bow bends. I think the Venetian makers glued a thin plate onto the bow which they could carve squared off to go into a square receiver in the stock. Because the bow bends it will break the joint between itself and the plate so the joint is reinforced by sinew which contracts as it dries and firmly holds everything together.
If your afraid to ask, you'll never learn
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This is a standard topic