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Elnathan Barnett




Location: The vicinity of Asheville, NC
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug, 2024 12:47 pm    Post subject: Spatha with a very unique cross-section         Reply with quote

It is the second of the two swords in this article here: https://www.academia.edu/113539990/Two_Iron_Swords_from_the_lower_course_of_the_South_Morava

The description is: "The sword is 87.8 cm long with a uniform width of parallel edges (5.1 cm), which only narrow within the final 5 cm of the blade (Fig. 2). The tang is formed as a triangular thorn (length: 14 cm; width 0.8-1.9 cm), with a rectangular cross section (1 cm thick), which emerges from a completely flat shoulder and ends in a spike. The blade is rhomboid in cross-section with two longitudinal grooved bands running parallel to edges (width 1.2 cm). The weight of the swords (sic) is 622.3 g."



The drawing doesn't seem quite right to me, since it doesn't show actual edges, and should probably be interpreted loosely. I wonder if the original shape might be better described as a basic hexagonal cross-section, very common at the time, with the edges hollow-ground somewhat, a wide fuller in the center of the blade and a very narrow fuller running around the central fuller between it and the edge. That would indeed leave a "grooved band" running parallel to the edge, but wouldn't necessarily, depending on the depths of the fuller and the radius at the edges, give quite the flat-plate-with-stuck-on-ridges that the drawing shows.

Either way, it is pretty unique cross-section, even by 3rd-4th century Imperial Roman standards. I have to wonder how well it worked - that raised rip/band so close to the edge probably made it more difficult cut deeply and I'm not sure it would increase stiffness enough to be worth the trade-off. That might depend on the exact dimensions, though.

Therfor he seide to hem, But now he that hath a sachel, take also and a scrippe; and he that
hath noon, selle his coote, and bigge a swerd.
- Luke 22:36, John Wycliffe's translation AD 1384
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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 361

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug, 2024 1:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would the "raised" area be a weld? A common sword construction technique was to have a mild or iron core with a hardenable edge welded to it. I'd think you'd want this area to be relatively robust.
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Elnathan Barnett




Location: The vicinity of Asheville, NC
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Likes: 3 pages

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu 05 Sep, 2024 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
Would the "raised" area be a weld? A common sword construction technique was to have a mild or iron core with a hardenable edge welded to it. I'd think you'd want this area to be relatively robust.


I just about forgot I had posted this...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a weld there. However, I don't think that explains the decision to have a raised ridge instead the normal profile, given that it was a common technique and this is an unusual profile.

Also, I would think that if welds needed extra thickness to be secure then pattern-welding wouldn't have worked very well...

Therfor he seide to hem, But now he that hath a sachel, take also and a scrippe; and he that
hath noon, selle his coote, and bigge a swerd.
- Luke 22:36, John Wycliffe's translation AD 1384
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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 361

PostPosted: Thu 05 Sep, 2024 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elnathan Barnett wrote:
Victor R. wrote:
Would the "raised" area be a weld? A common sword construction technique was to have a mild or iron core with a hardenable edge welded to it. I'd think you'd want this area to be relatively robust.


I just about forgot I had posted this...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a weld there. However, I don't think that explains the decision to have a raised ridge instead the normal profile, given that it was a common technique and this is an unusual profile.

Also, I would think that if welds needed extra thickness to be secure then pattern-welding wouldn't have worked very well...


Pattern weld and butt weld are two different animals. The pattern weld relies on drawing, folding, sometimes twisting, etc. to bind multiple grades of steel together.It doesn't create a truly homogenous billet, but things are pretty well combined, at least if done properly, and you're also bringing large, flat areas together, so the surfaces you're welding are much more robust than that edge.

The outer edge is a single butt weld going around the central core - you want to get those surfaces, which are much narrower than the flats welded together for the core, to hold together through combat. There's no folding, no twisting - just that single weld of two steels with different qualities. I'd want that area to be as thick as feasible and when I ground in a fuller to save some weight, I'd stay just a bit proud of the welded area. If you take a cross section of that, you'll get two ridges on either side of a valley. Perhaps age and corrosion cause that particular example to seem to stand out more, but that profile doesn't surprise me in the least given the construction methods common to the time and the style of blade.
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