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Sean Manning
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 Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2022 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: | | Sean Manning wrote: |
Edit: we can invent all kinds of stories why a blunt sword might have a scabbard (maybe the cutlers and furbishers wanted to get paid for making them?) but I am just saying that most practice swords to not have them so its weak evidence against interpreting these swords as blunts. |
Sure, we can invent all the stories we want, it doesn't change the fact that they are called fencing swords. So they are not regular swords. |
One obvious interpretation is that they are light, nimble swords for swordplay, rather than say heavier slower swords for killing and crippling from the back of a horse. A lot of historical swords are well-made but clearly not what anyone would choose for fencing if you set them loose in a cutler's shop. Datini sold many types of swords such as swords da cavallo (a contemporary German-Italian dictionary says those are the same as "riding swords" whatever that means).
Edit: I added the text of Duarte of Portugal's Regimento to an earlier post in this thread.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2022 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Johannes Zenker wrote: | | Ryan S. wrote: | | Also, I found a reference in a German Saga about Dietrich of Bern referring to blunt swords. A prince insists on using sharp swords instead of blunts in a match with his brother. |
You wouldn't happen to know when the references to blunt swords were first recorded?
I have since had more people speak of references to wooden training swords, but without citing specific sources, which just won't do. |
I don’t think anyone knows when it was first recorded, but I am talking about the Thidrekssaga as translated from Old Norse into German from von der Hagen. It is dated to 13th Century. The text is unclear if the sword is wood or metal, important to the story is that the one brother insists on uses sharp swords and then kills his brother.
Last edited by Ryan S. on Thu 29 Dec, 2022 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Fri 23 Dec, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ryan S. wrote: | | Johannes Zenker wrote: | | Ryan S. wrote: | | Also, I found a reference in a German Saga about Dietrich of Bern referring to blunt swords. A prince insists on using sharp swords instead of blunts in a match with his brother. |
You wouldn't happen to know when the references to blunt swords were first recorded?
I have since had more people speak of references to wooden training swords, but without citing specific sources, which just won't do. |
I don’t think anyone knows when it was first recorded, but I am talking about the Thidrekssaga as translated from Old Norse into German from von der Hagen. It is dated to 13th Century. The text is unclear if the sword is blunt, important to the story is that the one brother insists on uses sharp swords and then kills his brother. |
If you can find which line of which version of the saga, I think people would be interested! You might find someone with basic Old Norse skills if you ask around online.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Ryan S.
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Sean Manning
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Sun 08 Jan, 2023 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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There is a youtube video, in German, about wooden swords that were found in Germany. When they were originally found, the theory is that they were used in the fight against the Romans, because metal was scarce. The video argues that it is more probable that they were used as training weapons. Mainly because a wooden club is better and easier to make than a wooden sword. Also, they mention that Romans used wooden practice swords. The wooden swords are similar to the metal swords used at the time, and were not found near graves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3-2yGotWSU
I tried to find something in English about the find.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jan, 2023 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Practice Weapons used in the Middle Ages |
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| Johannes Zenker wrote: | Hello everyone, it's been a hot minute since I posted something here.
I've recentl/y started wondering (more intensely than before) what implements the people who wrote our fencing manuals used for practice |
There are a few examples at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow of 'training swords'
Historia magistra vitae est
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Thu 30 Mar, 2023 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding training swords in sheaths: reading town laws in Germany, it was often an offence to draw one’s sword. Therefore, I think one would not walk around with a training sword unsheathed (although there are other ways to carry one). However, I still think Sean makes a good case that most training swords were kept at the fencing school. So it would probably be unusual to have a training sword in a sheath, because it would be unusual to walk around with one. There might also a good chance that walking around with a sword wouldn’t be allowed, at least for craftsmen. Although I have reason to believe that the authorities might be more flexible on such things than their present day counterparts.
Regarding early metal training swords, Matt Easton made a video about Christopher Columbus´ sword. The sword in question is described as a fencing sword by the museum and is dull. Easton thinks that it was a sharp sword that was made dull, but doesn’t go into the reasons why. This made me wonder, were the first metal training swords just normal swords made dull? I could see this happening with old swords especially.
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Tue 28 May, 2024 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Page 141 of the Saga of Thidrek of Bern translated by Edward R. Haymes (written around 1250) does have a story where "The brothers and their master Vigbald went out and they took the swords they expected to fence with. Young Tristam said that it would be of no importance to fight with blunted swords. He said that he wanted to fight with sharp swords ... but Master Vigbald ... bade them not get angry because they had sharp swords." That is the first clear evidence for blunt steel practice swords west of China that I have ever seen!
If anyone can ever cite the espee rabbatue in fourteenth-century France I think people would be very interested. Matt Galas is way too wise to get into conversations on the Internet or social media.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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This is a standard topic