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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 795

PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
Sean Manning wrote:


Edit: we can invent all kinds of stories why a blunt sword might have a scabbard (maybe the cutlers and furbishers wanted to get paid for making them?) but I am just saying that most practice swords to not have them so its weak evidence against interpreting these swords as blunts.


Sure, we can invent all the stories we want, it doesn't change the fact that they are called fencing swords. So they are not regular swords.

One obvious interpretation is that they are light, nimble swords for swordplay, rather than say heavier slower swords for killing and crippling from the back of a horse. A lot of historical swords are well-made but clearly not what anyone would choose for fencing if you set them loose in a cutler's shop. Datini sold many types of swords such as swords da cavallo (a contemporary German-Italian dictionary says those are the same as "riding swords" whatever that means).

Edit: I added the text of Duarte of Portugal's Regimento to an earlier post in this thread.

www.bookandsword.com
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2022 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johannes Zenker wrote:
Ryan S. wrote:
Also, I found a reference in a German Saga about Dietrich of Bern referring to blunt swords. A prince insists on using sharp swords instead of blunts in a match with his brother.


You wouldn't happen to know when the references to blunt swords were first recorded?
I have since had more people speak of references to wooden training swords, but without citing specific sources, which just won't do.


I donít think anyone knows when it was first recorded, but I am talking about the Thidrekssaga as translated from Old Norse into German from von der Hagen. It is dated to 13th Century. The text is unclear if the sword is wood or metal, important to the story is that the one brother insists on uses sharp swords and then kills his brother.


Last edited by Ryan S. on Thu 29 Dec, 2022 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 795

PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2022 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
Johannes Zenker wrote:
Ryan S. wrote:
Also, I found a reference in a German Saga about Dietrich of Bern referring to blunt swords. A prince insists on using sharp swords instead of blunts in a match with his brother.


You wouldn't happen to know when the references to blunt swords were first recorded?
I have since had more people speak of references to wooden training swords, but without citing specific sources, which just won't do.


I donít think anyone knows when it was first recorded, but I am talking about the Thidrekssaga as translated from Old Norse into German from von der Hagen. It is dated to 13th Century. The text is unclear if the sword is blunt, important to the story is that the one brother insists on uses sharp swords and then kills his brother.

If you can find which line of which version of the saga, I think people would be interested! You might find someone with basic Old Norse skills if you ask around online.

www.bookandsword.com
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu 29 Dec, 2022 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:

If you can find which line of which version of the saga, I think people would be interested! You might find someone with basic Old Norse skills if you ask around online.


Here are the two translations I found on google books in German:
https://www.google.de/books/edition/Altdeutsche_und_Altnordische_Helden_Sage/g2YAAAAAcAAJ?hl=de&gbpv=1&dq=stumpfe+schwerter&pg=PA97&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.de/books/edition/Die_deutsche_Heldensage_und_ihre_Heimat/X_I6AAAAcAAJ?hl=de&gbpv=1&dq=stumpfe+schwerter&pg=PA525&printsec=frontcover

The main difference that I noticed between the two versions is how they spell the names.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 795

PostPosted: Thu 29 Dec, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It sounds like this is one of the sagas which has multiple ways of numbering chapters and sections, but I think that passage begins on page 43 of this edition of the original Norse text from 1905-1911. I don't know Old Norse and I'm not an expert on the sagas so good luck finding more information!
www.bookandsword.com
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 263

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2023 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a youtube video, in German, about wooden swords that were found in Germany. When they were originally found, the theory is that they were used in the fight against the Romans, because metal was scarce. The video argues that it is more probable that they were used as training weapons. Mainly because a wooden club is better and easier to make than a wooden sword. Also, they mention that Romans used wooden practice swords. The wooden swords are similar to the metal swords used at the time, and were not found near graves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3-2yGotWSU

I tried to find something in English about the find.
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 403

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2023 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Practice Weapons used in the Middle Ages         Reply with quote

Johannes Zenker wrote:
Hello everyone, it's been a hot minute since I posted something here.

I've recentl/y started wondering (more intensely than before) what implements the people who wrote our fencing manuals used for practice

There are a few examples at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow of 'training swords'

Historia magistra vitae est
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