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Dan D'Silva





Joined: 28 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: To-the-tip fullers         Reply with quote

Hello. I've seen a number of swords, mostly small cuttoes and the like from the 18th century, which appear to have fullers that run right to the tip without the edges coming together at all, as if the blade had been made longer and then cut down. By their shape and other details, they don't look to me like actual longer hangers or sabers of the period that have been cut down, so I would guess that their fullers were shaped like this from the start, but why? Is the tip kind of thin if it comes to a spear point in the middle of the fuller, and if so, is that going to make it damage-prone if it strikes bone or other hard material in a thrust?

I understand that these are not heavy fighting swords, but it's still a strange and interesting detail.



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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know the answer to this as a fact, but my speculation is that it has to do with changing manufacture methods and probably the quality of the piece.

The reason I suspect this is that I have some old sabre steel lengths from Wilkinson Sword that have been rolled and have the fuller rolled in as part of the process. This means the fuller will run all the way to the end if the fuller depth is too much.

Something like this?

Tod

And now of course I have looked at the picture and see the fuller is not full blade length, so reset to 'I have no idea', but though I would leave this comment in as I think the pre rolled stock part is interesting.

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those cuttoe and a lot of spadroons have fullers right to the point. The image you showed is a blade that had been overly trimmed a bit (some inches).

A long one. You'll see the fuller right to the tip.


This is typical for these long ricasso fullered cuttoe blades.

A large number of spadroons share the same trait and even some broader sabres share the same "to the point" grind.




As these sometimes did get ground down, the look of through the point may be apparent and a good many shortened blade do show it. The way I look to determine on some is to look at the fuller itself where they start to curve. Sometimes one really has to have the piece in hand to determine if a blade was seriously cropped.

Cheers
GC
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Dan D'Silva





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2021 4:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks. So these cuttoes with open-ended fullers did originate as longer blades, but these were already cuttoe blades and not necessarily a whole lot longer, just that because the fuller already ran to the tip, shortening the blade by any amount resulted in losing the closed end. That makes sense to me.
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2021 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If the fuller runs through the point, it is an indication of the blade being shortened, The one example you show was shortened by some inches, as much as four inches but at least a couple.

Can you post more examples of fullers through the point for what you see as normal?

Cheers
GC
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Dan D'Silva





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the very clearest example I've seen. I didn't bring it up at first because it has an asymmetrical point and wouldn't be a good illustration for the question I had about a spear point.


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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan D'Silva wrote:
Thanks. So these cuttoes with open-ended fullers did originate as longer blades, but these were already cuttoe blades and not necessarily a whole lot longer, just that because the fuller already ran to the tip, shortening the blade by any amount resulted in losing the closed end. That makes sense to me.

Christian Cameron's favourite sword for the woods is like that: an owner in the late 18th / early 19th century had the hanger shortened by about 6". Much handier hiking in Algonquian National Park!

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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 3:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan D'Silva wrote:
This is the very clearest example I've seen. I didn't bring it up at first because it has an asymmetrical point and wouldn't be a good illustration for the question I had about a spear point.


Again, a trimmed blade. Blades break, or are otherwise altered. Both examples do not represent how they were originally produced. Whether a medieval sword, or modern bayonet, there may have been a want to shorten a blade but length offers the only perceived benefit. Some might argue it was done for a caping advantage but it dos not follow to me that it was a purposeful advantage.

Cheers
GC
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Dan D'Silva wrote:
Thanks. So these cuttoes with open-ended fullers did originate as longer blades, but these were already cuttoe blades and not necessarily a whole lot longer, just that because the fuller already ran to the tip, shortening the blade by any amount resulted in losing the closed end. That makes sense to me.

Christian Cameron's favourite sword for the woods is like that: an owner in the late 18th / early 19th century had the hanger shortened by about 6". Much handier hiking in Algonquian National Park!


A novelist offering third party history?. Does Cameron have a journal for the fellow describing his penchant? Or is it speculation? Swords are cut down to be knives and it is apparent in early modern and contemporary history, as even in WWII, swords as late as the Patton 1913 were getting chopped up as knives. The two examples shown thus far are long enough that repair is (imo) more likely why they were reground.

Cheers
GC
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Dan D'Silva





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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Christian Cameron's favourite sword for the woods is like that: an owner in the late 18th / early 19th century had the hanger shortened by about 6". Much handier hiking in Algonquian National Park!

That's the kind of use I'd see for one, if it were heavy enough. I understand some of the later ones I've been looking at recently had very lightweight blades and were actually worn in town like smallswords.
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Whether a medieval sword, or modern bayonet, there may have been a want to shorten a blade but length offers the only perceived benefit. Some might argue it was done for a caping advantage but it dos not follow to me that it was a purposeful advantage.

Cheers
GC

Understood. Would you think it offers any disadvantages, like weakening the point in a thrust? I would think if it came to a spear point in the middle of the fuller, then the last fraction of an inch would be more likely to fold or break.
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Sean Manning




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
A novelist offering third party history?. Does Cameron have a journal for the fellow describing his penchant? Or is it speculation?

I don't understand the question.

Christian Cameron keeps creating, moving, and deleting websites so I have given up on trying to find and link his online essays. From memory, the hanger currently has a 20-24" blade, in his judgement it was originally 4-6" longer, and he finds this size much handier on multiple-day hikes in the woods than a 'medium-sized sword'. It seems to be a working-life modification, so it can't be older than the blade or younger than when people stopped carrying these in the 19th century. If you want more details about why he interprets his hanger that way ask him, I am reporting his interpretation not giving mine.

I have never heard of a sword needing to be shortened by 4-6" after use, that sounds like a badly designed sword to me (if you have so-so steel, design a sword which puts easy demands on it). Swords often break close to the hilt, and Japanese swords sometimes chip at the point. But European swords in the 18th and 19th century are not an area of my expertise.

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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
A novelist offering third party history?. Does Cameron have a journal for the fellow describing his penchant? Or is it speculation?

I don't understand the question.

Christian Cameron keeps creating, moving, and deleting websites so I have given up on trying to find and link his online essays. From memory, the hanger currently has a 20-24" blade, in his judgement it was originally 4-6" longer, and he finds this size much handier on multiple-day hikes in the woods than a 'medium-sized sword'. It seems to be a working-life modification, so it can't be older than the blade or younger than when people stopped carrying these in the 19th century. If you want more details about why he interprets his hanger that way ask him, I am reporting his interpretation not giving mine.

I have never heard of a sword needing to be shortened by 4-6" after use, that sounds like a badly designed sword to me (if you have so-so steel, design a sword which puts easy demands on it). Swords often break close to the hilt, and Japanese swords sometimes chip at the point. But European swords in the 18th and 19th century are not an area of my expertise.


In part Sean, I think I may have misread some of what you wrote.
"an owner in the late 18th / early 19th century had the hanger shortened by about 6"

The dimensions of your memory leaves a lot of leeway as to what the sword was. I have no vested interest aside from looking for a little clarification. I know nothing of his works, nor how he employs his short sword. The long cuttoe I showed was made for dispatching downed game. If Cameron was/is using his as a camp knife, then liking a shorter do-all makes sense. If he was dispatching game, he would probably appreciate why it might have been designed as longer.

I think I mentioned swords break. The 18th century saw a lot of broken swords. Usually towards the foible (pointy end). Thick at the hilt, reducing greatly by the pob and many wafer thin at the point. Flexible flyers until they stay bent or break. Premium cast steel billets (refined shear steel) were a late 18th century start to unified blades until Bessemer comes along.

On the other hand, I have German bladed spadroons that had fullers less than full length and one of those probably did break or bend just past the fuller and ground to a point.

I have to remain unconvinced the two examples Dan has posted were anything but repair.

Cheers
GC
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jul, 2021 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Whether a medieval sword, or modern bayonet, there may have been a want to shorten a blade but length offers the only perceived benefit. Some might argue it was done for a caping advantage but it dos not follow to me that it was a purposeful advantage.

Cheers
GC

Understood. Would you think it offers any disadvantages, like weakening the point in a thrust? I would think if it came to a spear point in the middle of the fuller, then the last fraction of an inch would be more likely to fold or break.


I think you are overthinking this Wink

I think I am probably not going to be much help for you beyond what I have outlined. The swords are what they are. Repairs are what they were. Modifications in the two examples you show (imo) repaired blades, not to any particular advantage.

Cheers
GC

I'll leave you with a favorite silver piece. Note a sturdier blade for offensive/defensive work.



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