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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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 Posted: Fri 16 Apr, 2021 6:36 am Post subject: Type XVIIIC's *not* from Alexandria? |
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The Alexandria family of swords with Type XVIIIc blades is pretty well known. They all have wheel pommels (some faceted, and/or some with recesses, some not) bastard sword grips, and straight guards typically with down-turned tips. Clive Thomas and others have documented these in several great articles.
My question: do we know of other swords with that same configuration (not just the blade type) that *didn't* pass through the Alexandria Arsenal? I can't recall any, so I'm turning to the hive mind for help. 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Joel Chesser
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| Posted: Fri 16 Apr, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, good question. I'm sorry I have nothing to contribute, but I really hope some of you other fine gents do! This is probably addressed in the article on this site, but do we see them referenced in the art of the period. I know you cant definitively put an EXACT type to a depiction, but do we come close? I'm not trying to derail from the original question, just trying to gauge commonality of the type I guess.
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."
- Luke 22:36
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John Dunn
Location: Frankfort, KY Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Fri 16 Apr, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: Type XVIIIc |
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A&A calls their towton sword a type xviiic
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 17 Apr, 2021 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Type XVIIIc |
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| John Dunn wrote: | | A&A calls their towton sword a type xviiic |
And the blade appears to be one. But it’s not part of the family I’m looking at. The grip is too long and the guard isn’t the same. The blade also appears narrower than the Alexandria examples. I’m specifically looking for swords in the Alexandria family (like this one: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23189 ) not generally at XVIIIc blades.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Sat 17 Apr, 2021 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 17 Apr, 2021 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Joel Chesser wrote: | | Hmm, good question. I'm sorry I have nothing to contribute, but I really hope some of you other fine gents do! This is probably addressed in the article on this site, but do we see them referenced in the art of the period. I know you cant definitively put an EXACT type to a depiction, but do we come close? I'm not trying to derail from the original question, just trying to gauge commonality of the type I guess. |
Albion’s old page for the sword (https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-alexandria-xviiia.htm ) showed some period art that kinda looks like the family but kinda looks like other things, too, IMO.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Todd Hawkins
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2021 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Chad,
Have you read the Park Lane 2018 article by Clive Thomas called the “Harriet Dean Sword”?
When taking about swords of this type in a group he says “Overall, around 20 members of the group are known. Some of which are only identified from old photographs. About half the known examples are currently in the Military Museum in Istanbul.”
Then he goes on to describe 4 swords currently in other collections: the MET sword, Leeds castle sword, Harriet Dean, and the Philadelphia Museum sword.
However I believe all “swords of this group” have Alexandria inscriptions just by the way they’re discussed.
You might want to check with Clive Thomas as he would be the best person to ask and I’ve seen him post on this forum before.
Hope that helps.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2021 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Todd,
I think I have that article and have read it. That and other articles just got me thinking about whether swords of this configuration were made for anything besides these tributes/donations. I need to go back and re-read the articles I have to see if any of them include damage that looks like it came from use. If not, and if there aren't swords of that configuration that didn't pass through Alexandria, I wonder if we're seeing a family of swords purpose built for those donations.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | I wonder if we're seeing a family of swords purpose built for those donations. |
This could well be the answer, but it also could be a certain group connected to events surrounding the events that participated the tribute might well account for the concentration of the pieces. Its a difficult point to pin down with any kind of certainty. The swords are definitely swords by design and functionality, wether they were made as tribute or for battle is a different question.
Best
Craig
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JG Elmslie
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2021 4:36 am Post subject: |
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there's at least one XVIIIc (of slightly unusual form) in the "das schwert" catalogue, there's also a particularly broad bladed later example in the Dresden rustkammer.
the only other one I can think of is this one in the met, which has always flashed up a little caution about the pommel, something doesnt feel right about it:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/32429
those are the closest, but not quite a match.
It may be blasphemous and somewhat treading on Oakeshott's toes with size 10 steel tocapped boots, but in many ways, the closest match is the Castillon-A group, in terms of pommel and cross forms, and extremely wide blades, even though they're normally considered XVIIIa's.
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Michael Zimmermann
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: |
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This might be another specimen, where you might (barely) get away with assigning it to type XVIII c:
https://sammlung.nationalmuseum.ch/de/list?detailID=158831
- Michael
Last edited by Michael Zimmermann on Wed 21 Apr, 2021 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tyler C.
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Todd, I wonder if we're seeing a family of swords purpose built for those donations. |
I agree with Craig here. These are definitely not just wall hangers. There are swords out there that have the exact same dimensions and cross guard, but with different pommel types so it is not a question of it being a real sword.
Here is an interesting post that I ran into some time ago while looking into the same topic. This is clearly a similar sword from the same maker which has likely been altered. Probably the Victorians to thank for that. I doubt that it has the original pommel and the guard has been cut down an re-worked, but it certainly looks like it could have belonged to this group before it was mutilated. No much help, but it is interesting.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.38869.html
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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James and Michael,
Thanks for the examples. I thought about making the post title more clear, but feared it would be too long. I'm really only interested in swords of the Alexandria family and not any other swords with Type XVIIIc blades. So wheel pommels, straight guards with downturned tips, bastard length grips *and* XVIIIc blades.
James, I do agree there are some similarities among some of the Castillon swords. I'll have to look into those more. Thanks!
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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This is a standard topic