[Stephen Curtin]

So the French, Italians, and Spanish sometimes positioned pavisiers in front of formations of crossbowmen to defend against enemy fire. This is also how I imagine the Scottish used their "aixmen". I wonder; If an enemy forced advanced on the crossbowmen's position, would these pavisiers fight with spear and shield like in earlier shieldwalls, or would they discard their pavises so as to wield their spears in both hands? As it would be impractical to wield a pavise with a pollaxe, I imagine that Scottish axe-men (assuming that my theory is correct) would abandon their targes if and when they needed to use their axes or brogit staves.

Pedro I have seen this "Adoration of the Magi" painting before, and considered bringing it up in this discussion, but I chose not to so as not to steer the conversation away from pavises. I intended to make another thread to discuss this very subject but never got around to it. When I get some time, perhaps later on this evening, I'll give my thoughts on these unusual shields.

[Iagoba Ferreira]

[Stephen Curtin]

Before I talk about the adoration of the magi painting, I'll say one quick thing about the use of the some words related to targe. In German speaking countries the word tartsche (obviously a borrowing from targe) is a synonym for schild (shield), though usually it is used to describe rectangular shields. For example a German term for pavise is setztartsche (a shield that you set up), and a hand pavise is a handtarsche (no explanation needed here). And of course in Italy there was a rectangular shaped buckler called a targa, which looks like a smaller version of a hand praise. This could possibly strengthen the idea that 15th century Scottish targes were also rectangular.

Anyway getting back to the shields from the adoration of the magi painting. Let's list the things that we know for certain about the targes from the 15th century legislations and see if the shields in the painting match.

1. It was a new or unusual design of shield that many would have been unfamiliar with, thus necessitating example being sent out to each shire.
2. It was primarily intended to defend against English arrows.
3. It was cheap; no more than the value of a hide.
4. It was made from either leather or from wood.
5. It had two handles on the back.

It isn't definite but William Patten may have been talking about these same targes when he said; "They were new boards' ends cut off, being about a foot in breadth and half a yard in length : having on the inside, handles made very cunningly of two cords".

So do the shields depicted in the painting of the adoration of the Magi adhere to these criteria? Due to the angle from which they are painted it's hard to make out their exact size and shape. We also don't know what they are made from or what sort of grip they were used with. They seem to be about the right size if we accept Patten's description, but on the other hand this means that they are fairly small and of limited use for protecting against English arrows. Neither Patten nor the legislations mention a metal boss, and this would make them more than the value of a hide. Overall I'm not sure what to make of these shields.

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[Nathan Robinson]

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

[Stephen Curtin]

Great stuff Pedro. I never really thought of these infantrymen with large oval shields as pavisiers before, but I suppose they are, or at the very least they seem to perform the same function.

I have to beg to differ on the issue of whether Scottish axe-men were using one or two handed axes. At least one of the legislations mention that axes can be substituted for brogit staves or short spears, and as these two weapons are poleaems I have to think that so were the axes. All the legislations which mention axe-men between 1430 and 1491, list their minimum equipment as; helmet, jack, axe, sword, and either a buckler or a targe. If you already have a sword as a sidearm, why would you want a single handed axe as your primary weapon? Wouldn't a two handed axe make more sense in this scenario? Also the adoration of the magi painting shows men armed with glaives and medium sized shields. A glaive is a two handed weapon so I'm really not sure how it was used in conjunction with a shield. The only thing that I can think of is that the shield was left hanging from a strap around the neck leaving both arms free to wield the glaive. Perhaps this is also how Scottish axe-men used their shields? The downside of using a shield like this is that is could potentially limit some of the pollaxe techniques which could otherwise be used.

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[J. Douglas]

A few points I'd like to suggest. (Not that I have much experience but anyhow...)

1. Would it be possible that they strapped the shields to their arms and used the a isle two handed? (You know, like some Greeks did in aincent times?)
2. Perhaps I'm making an immeasurably wild stretch here, but could the axes refer to something a lot larger? Like short halberds or the like?
3. Their Scottish. My ancestors were Scottish and I've been there quite a bit. I love the place. I'm pretty sure they could use at least 5 two handed axes at once with their forefingers alone. (Assuming they had enough of Ye Olden IRN BRU to fight with, of course)

[Stephen Curtin]

James. It is entirely possible that the axes mentioned in these legislations referred to halberds or Lochaber axes or any number of axe-like polearm. My money however is on it meaning Pollaxe. Personally i think that a shield strapped to your arm would get in the way while trying to wield a polearm, but I could be wrong. For what its worth the famous painting of the Battle of Culloden does depict one of the charging Highlanders as using a Lochaber axe in two hands while having a targe strapped to his arm.

Pedro. If they wanted a single handed weapon to better deal with armour then a mace or warhammer would have been a better choice than an axe IMO. I don't think that a single handed axe would be any better than a sword for dealing with an armoured opponent.

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[Stephen Curtin]

[Iagoba Ferreira]

Spanish sources from the late XVth century and early XVIth century tend to show the pavisemen armed with darts (probably fletched javelins with "dove tail" points).

In Lope García de Salazar's "Bienandanzas e fortunas", XVth century combats between half a dozen and several dozen supporters of the low nobility families in northern Castille shows a tendency to crossbow combat from distance (like a Wild West shootout), and if the fighters got closer, pavisemen would throw darts. In some cases, hand to hand combat followed with spears, very rarely with swords. Sometimes, armoured cavalry would be present and also threw darts, to continue with spears or swords.

Of course, while attacking or defending houses, ships and towers, a very frequent kind of combat, pavises came handy too.

As bonus, some ceremonial pavises, early 1609 painting showing Ferdinand II fulfilling his feudal duties in 1476.

[Axel Schudak]

I know I am late on this Pavise-party, but here is a depiction of their usage by Hussite mercenaries during the Landhut succession wars in 1504 at the battle of Schönfeld:


Link (inline seems not to work for me):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshuter_Erbfolgekrieg#/media/File:Schlacht_Schoenberg.jpg


Wikipedia on the battle (sorry, only available on German):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_von_Wenzenbach
and war:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Succession_of_Landshut[/img]

The usage was as a mobile wall.

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[Iagoba Ferreira]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

It does seen plausible that French and Castilian Pavisiers were not intended to be crossbowmen. But the reason why I revived the topic relates to some mss. I found that give a point to Stephen:



Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Battle_of_Auray_2.jpg

There are lots of interesting equipment here, but the fact the French Pavisiers are armed with poleaxes (even though with one hand) is odd. The handles are shorter, of course, but I think that's artistic license instead of an actual one-handed variation (an axe specialist could give their two cents on that).

Some cavalrymen is also using this poilaxes. And, regardless of the subject of one or two handed, this figure from "The Arrival of the Pilgrims at Cologne", from the Legends of St. Ursula, a shielded warrior with a long-handled warhammer:



Source: http://www.academic-capital.net/2013/05/the-a...ne-by.html

[Radovan Geist]

Ten years ago (wow, already so long!) guys from Kosice reenactment groups experimented with an efficiency of different formations using pavises. The whole article could be found here: http://www.viacassa.eu/taktika-uhorskeho-pesi...u-v-praxi/ It´s in Slovak, but using Google translator would work, methinks.
What was interesting, their experiments were informed by sources from the 2nd half of the 15th century. Some of them are quoted directly in the article. Let me summarise those that are related directly to the use of pavises on the battlefields (2nd half of 15th century, Hungary), maybe it brings some interesting information:

"Armored soldiers and soldiers with shields (large shields/pavises) demand double pay for their armor and shields because for carrying their armor and shield they need the assistance of pages and servants that need to be sustained... We use armored soldiers as a wall; they would not move from their place (on the battlefield) even if they´d all die there..."
(A letter of the Hungarian king Mathias Corvinus to the bishop of Jeger)

"When you should array 100 foot soldiers, line six with pavises in the front line, mixed with shoters from handguns or crosbows. Then, line three soldiers with pavises and three soldiers with glaives/poleaxes behind them, then seven soldiers with pavises. Bedind them, again soldiers with glaives/poleaxes, and then the flag, well protected by pavises from cavalry attacks..."
(15th century Czech general Vaclav Vlcek from Cenov)

"The whole light infantry and shooters from handguns are surrounded by armoured soldiers and shiled-bearers in a way similar to fortress, because pavises lined closely into a circle are just like fortress walls protecting infantry and the others. Those, protected behind a wall of pavises and dikes, then gush out to attack in a right time."
(A letter of the Hungarian king Mathias Corvinus to the bishop of Jeger)

"More lightly armored infantrymen attack from behind them (pavise wall) and when they´re tired or sense a more serious danger, the retire behind the armored soldiers (with shields). When they recover their strengths and courage, they wait for a right moment to attack againg."
(A letter of the Hungarian king Mathias Corvinus to the bishop of Jeger)

[Stephen Curtin]

Hi Pedro. I'm glad to see that this topic still interests you. I have seen these images before but unfortunately I really don't know what to think of them. Thanks for thinking to share them here though.