Medieval Sword, would appreciate any information -- myArmoury.com

Daniel Calvino

Dear Friends, as Antiques dealer , got this sword, the owner said its north italian , about 15th century
but I just know about furniture! has a bone handle about 4 inches , is light , about 2,25 pounds..
Would appreciate any comments about, in order to clarify where is really from..thanks

Angus Trim · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 7:20 am Post subject:

Might be a good idea to find someone really familiar with antique swords. That one kinda reminds me of another "15th century Italian sword" I saw in the flesh earlier this year. My feeling about the one I saw earlier this year was that it was a well made fake.

Since there is reputedly a well established trade of fake antique gims and daos in China these days, my thought was that the first one I saw was an attempt by these reputed Chinese traders to fake some European antiques.

I'm not an expert on antiques, but there's a couple things about this one that set off my alarms. Might be a good idea to see if either Craig Johnson or Peter Johnsson would be willing to voice an opinion based on photos.........

Brian M · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 8:28 am Post subject:

I have to say, I've never seen a racetrack-shaped fuller.

Brian M

Ben Sweet · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 8:38 am Post subject:

Here is the link to the sword and the site
http://www.antiqnet.com/category,arms-and-armor-3.html

Björn Hellqvist · myArmoury Alumni

My first reaction is "19th century fake/decorative sword". The blade looks like nothing I've ever seen (but then, there's a lot of stuff that hasn't been seen yet). The bone/ivory grip is pinned together, which is a pretty poor way of doing it. It is always hard to tell whether a sword is genuine or not without handling it, but based on the pics, I would say it isn't older than 150 years.

Robert Grant Gomm · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 2:00 pm Post subject:

well, I've got to say that is definately different looking. But then again, I've also seen (key word here is "seen"- I've unfortunately never had to opportunity to actually handle) very wierd swords in museums and collections in france and england (like 15 years ago, so admittedly, my memory isn't too sharp). But the point is that I believe that it may be near impossible to tell for sure if it is original from those pics. Think about that claymore with the four quillons and that wierd bent grip made from a walrus (or norwhal?) tusk. I'd have never guessed that was an authentic piece. So maybe this is an original too. But I'd never fork out the cash for it with out being 100% sure. $3500 is a lot of cash to gamble on.

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

Okay I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the pinned handle and the bizarro blade. I wouldn't be prepared to say for sure it's not real after all there is some pretty weird stuff out there that is authentic, but the question I have is even if it was real why would you want it? Yuck!

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 3:20 pm Post subject:

Let's not be too harsh with the comments guys.

Daniel sent me these pics and asked for my advice. I too doubt if it's original, for several of the reasons mentioned. I advised him to post the pics here, so as to get more feedback. Posts in the vein of "That sucks" or "It's butt ugly" really aren't constructive, nor do they give strangers looking for feedback incentive to post here.

No worries here. Let's just keep it constructive.

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

I see from the auction site that you can contact the seller . I would see if the seller can provide any sort of documented
provenance for the item . Its a very "mabey it is , mabey it isn't " piece .

Daniel Calvino · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject:

Hi, I am Daniel , the Antiques Dealer, I appreciate all the comments received.
I am not trying to convince you about the authenticity, I began telling you , just know about
furniture, but may be, if we study the case together and we all colaborate with our opinions
and ideas, we may find out something.

About your comments:
Provenance: I don't have any documents but I can go back to 1920 :

a) I got the sword from Professor ( Arts) Julio Arteaga (age 79 ), few weeks ago.

b) Mr. Arteaga bought it in 1966 from a South american diplomatic at Vatican
still don't have the name but will have it, this person was a well know collector of swords.

c) The Diplomatic ( was in Italy for about 20 years) bought the sword in 1920 by recommendation
of the curator of the collection Castello Sant ´Angelo in Rome.

Those are just a few years if its original, but may put some light if the fakes were usually done after
1920.

If there is anything else I can do just ask.

best regards

Shawn Mulock

Daniel Calvino · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 6:38 pm Post subject:

Hi , Daniel again
I attach another picture

Additional Information
The Sword Collector name was Carbonell Deballi ( or Devalli), he died in 1965 , he was diplomatic
in Vatican from 1920 to 1946.

Angus Trim · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 7:12 pm Post subject:

If one could handle this, and "it handled like a sword", then the doubts might just go away.

But photos are hard to judge by.

Some of the things that raise alarm bells in my head:

1. Main bevel angle from fuller to edge
2. Relationship of finger ring to edge
3. Pommel doesn't seem to fit with a sword with fingerring { I would have expected more detail}
4. Profile taper {or lack thereof} in a "15th century sword"
5. Uniformity of patina on all three features {blade, guard, and pommel}..... different materials should patina differently, and likely not uniformly

There's others, but these are the maing thing. The handle isn't necessarily a problem, as a lot of handles of existing antiques are later replacements. The fuller shape is a bit odd, but I don't see it as a real problem........

The "dynamic balance" though would be a giveaway one way or the other. The fingerring kinda points to the intention of thrusting {though not necessarily}, and the lack of profile taper jars a bit with that. The dynamic balance would tell whether the intent of the sword was to thrust, to cut, both, or whether it was likely a Victorian era fake.

This isn't meant to be a condemnation of the sword. Just pointing out some of the questions it brings up to me.........

Auld Dawg

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

Gus is right about the hands on . Would go alot farther than photos . Are there any markings on the sword anywhere?
Symbols, numers , letters ?

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

Well I have to apologize, as Patrick says the yuck comment wasn't exactly constructive, more of a gut reaction. There were some rather accomplished fakers in the 19th century, people that could turn out something that could make this sword look like a poor cousin whether it actually is authentic or not.

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Hmmmm

I would swing towards some type of Civic sword. ie for a pagent or festival. There are many of these throughout Europe and swords would have been made for them in many cases. Thus it maybe as simple as a club or guild sword for one of these. This might explain the grip construction. Another thing that comes to mind might be something for the stage. If made in the mid 1800's I would expect it to look much like this condition wise.

The other option may be a blade hilted to look more "antique" not so much to fake but to be a prop for one of the above reasons possibly. The blade is giving me that mid to late 1800's feel. The patina is so even across the parts, as Gus pointed out , that I think they have been together for a while.

Is it the angle of the photo or is the blade a bit saber shaped?

Is the pommel penned to the tang?

Craig

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

I agree with Craig on this one.

From the photos it seems like the sword is a modern antique, perhaps made in the 19th C. From the photos one might concule that the edge bevels are quite blunt in their angles. Is the edge even a bit rounded? I am guessing on this one....

Everything in the shape of the blade is an exception from the norm. This does not in itself say anything about authenticity, but it can be a good reason to have second thoughts.

Daniel Calvino · Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2003 4:13 am Post subject:

Hi, I see some of you are needing additional information , will provide

Angus with the Dymanic Balance data , if somebody tell me how to measure that !
Allan , I didnt find any marks but will check it again
Craig , you will have additional pictures in a few hours

thank for your help..

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

I don't think its a theater piece . When I used to collect e few years back all the theater pieces both armour and weapons
I ever encountered were built to pass from a distance but on close inspection ( 10 feet ) would become pretty obvious .
The sword being made during the Victorian medevial revival were of reletivally good quality if a little medevialesque .
There were plenty of firms making swords and knives for both military contracts and private commisions ( unlike
armour which was with a few excaptions like Ernst Schmit was being pressed out quick and dirty to hang on the
manor wall ) . If its a fake/reproduction it seems to me theres to much attention to detail to be just a stage prop . Craigs
guild/ pagent tack seems plausible .

Shawn Mulock · Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2003 8:55 am Post subject:

So the vote goes to Victorian reproduction. I should have seen that... Oh well, learn something new everyday!