Cedarlore Forge build, need some advise. -- myArmoury.com

William Scheuch

So I am talks right now with David DelaGardelle at cedarlore forge about building a gallowglass sword and letting him go hog wild. Though there are two points of contention. One is whether to go with the damascus process or not. I am on the fence about whether it will improve the looks or not.

Also I really want to have some sort of proverb on the blade. Though what language should it be in? Celtic? Latin? Runic?

Zach H. · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject:

Hey William,

So there is no true "Celtic" language. It's just a term for a grouping of similar languages such as Gaelic (Scots)/Gaelige (Irish), Welsh, Brythonic, Gaulish, and a couple of others. The Medieval Irish would have been speaking Gaelige, I think Middle Irish to be exact. Most people who had swords would have been noble and nobles used Latin for inscriptions a lot of the time. I would suggest having an inscription in either Irish or Latin. Maybe your family motto?

Zach

William Scheuch · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject:

Yea latin is probably what I will do, especially since the proverbs were originally latin and I want something old feeling. Just did not want something in a language that would be historically inconsistent with a blade of that time and region to throw off the vibe. I am of german decent and I am uncertain of my family motto".

I will see if he is willing to do a Inlay since those look the best.

here are the proverbs I am leaning towards.

" Oculus animi index"
- the eyes look but the mind sees.

"Qui non proficit, deficit"
- he who does not go forward, loses ground.

A good one for a cleaver.
" meat is sweetest near the bone"
though the latin is a bit long on that one.

Nat Lamb · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject:

Were I in your position, I would definitely not go the damascus route. Though I am no expert, I believe that by the time period you would be talking about that all the export blades from Germany (where I believe the vast bulk of Galloglass blades came from) were either mono-steel, or perhaps 1 type of steel in a “tube” of a 2nd sort. As such, Damascus would be a-historic.
Damascus claymores always look “wrong” to me, but really that is just my preferences. If you view this more as an art object rather than a re-creation of a historical artefact then go with whatever you think looks coolest.

William Scheuch · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject:

I have no idea exactly what he plans on doing with the build so I expect it to be a-historical from the get go. However, I share your apprehension about a damascus look on a gallowglass sword. I just can not picture it in my head. I am thinking a dull iron finish with inlays would be more appropriate.

like so.

Theo Squires · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject:

One thing you might consider is if you go with a "plainer" looking, non-damascus blade (obviously still beautiful!), you might have a more elaborate scabbard, whereas if you went with a fancier damascus blade, you'd probably want a plainer scabbard. A lot of personal preference here, of course, but I think a fancy damascus blade and fancy scabbard would be too much visually. Not sure if you're getting a scabbard with it, though.

Personally, I think that damascus/pattern welding looks out of place on medieval swords and is better suited to smaller blades, as on knives or Viking swords. For me, there's a lot of elegance in the lethal grace of medieval swords and "bling" somewhat detracts from that. Damascus could make it too visually intense. As for historical plausibility, an inlaid inscription on a large sword would probably look good without seeming a-historic.

Of course, I'm sure whatever path you go with, it will look amazing. Be sure to post photos when you get it!

Victor Sloan · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject:

I consider you lucky indeed to be getting a cedarlore blade! Dave does some beautiful work!

William Scheuch · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 8:06 pm Post subject:

Luka Borscak · Posted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 11:51 pm Post subject:

Other places from which Irish imported their blades seem to be Spain or maybe Italy, based on some type XIX blades... Maybe that will give you some ideas...

Isaac H. · Posted: Fri 11 Apr, 2014 11:39 am Post subject:

I do heartily agree that a pattern-welded blade would look rather out of place (if not downright strange) on a Gallowglass sword.

However, I will point out that a modern mono steel alloy isn't your only alternative. If Dave is really going all out, why not forge the blade out of a historical material like bloomery or hearth steel? I don't think Cedarlore has done any serious smelting work , but I know that there are plenty of craftsmen that specialize in it ( Jeff Pringle, Jim Austin, Ric Furrer,etc.) , so obtaining material for the project would be possible.

It all ends up being between you and Dave though. Whatever you decide, let us know how it turns out ! David's work is a large inspiration to me and so many others.

William Scheuch · Posted: Fri 11 Apr, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject:

Dave talked about setting up an account here and doing a thread detailing the construction of this blade.

I am sure everyone would be glad to have him in the makers forum.

Victor Sloan · Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2014 3:50 am Post subject:

I would love that!

David DelaGardelle · Industry Professional

Hi everyone!

William was kind enough to ask me to contribute my thoughts, ideas, and progress on the project here on this thread as it comes to life.
And Nathan Robinson was kind enough to add me to the list of industry professionals here on the forum.

So to the both of them; a hearty thank you! Happy

When William contacted me about the possibility of this piece I was really thrilled.
I've always loved these swords and the time period they dwelt in. And have wanted an excuse to make something along these lines.
And I have a special fascination with swords that dwell on the border between history and fantasy...

And to me at least it seems that the Irish ring-hilted swords with "Forked" guards that we see in many historical illustrations fit that strange category?
I may be ignorant and misinformed on the details about this particular type of sword and its time period. But given my research online and in many books: It seems that the "forked" style of cross guards has never been physically found on a historical sword???
is this true? Or do some physically found swords show this type of guard?

I found this point stated in a few places here on the forum. And it seems that the only truly historical type of guard found on these swords were the curved "S" style.
I would love to learn more about this. And why we see these "Forked" guards so prominently in most Irish artwork, depicting the Gallowglass warriors who used them??

Works of art like these:
http://s29.postimg.org/eudhckes7/16th_century_Irish.jpg
http://s15.postimg.org/988siizbf/Gaelic_clothing_Ireland.jpg
http://s8.postimg.org/gf95fuxl1/gaelic_irelan..._sgian.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/yiltvlkuv/Irishmen_arr...bier_c.jpg

In a strange way, I love the fact that these swords with their awkward guards seem to be a mystery? (or at least, a mystery to me currently) Wink

I'd love to explore what a sword of this style could be like at its peak, yet slightly battle worn over years of fighting and travel.
Crafted respectively and accurately in the spirit of the time period.
Yet, still adding my own artistic touch to it, and giving it an original and slightly mythological flavor, which would free me creatively a bit?

And with Williams permission, I would love for this to be a collaborative community build, where I gain from the insight and ideas of all of you, and take them into consideration in crafting this piece to life!?

So with all of that said, here is my first rough-take on the initial sword design I have in mind:

Larger image here: http://s24.postimg.org/9od022gx1/Woodkern.jpg

This design is just a rough framework to begin with, and something to springboard off of if William or any others think any changes are needed?
So it is not set in stone.

The rendering depicts the grip made of darkened and carved deer antler. Brass ferrules and pommel cap. And antiqued/blackened steel fittings.
The blade also would be lightly antiqued, with engravings down the length.
The Scabbard could be forest green or dark red leather? with a simple belt suspension with brass rings.

Another thought I had when dreaming and doing research for this piece was about the potential name...
I fell in love with the term "Woodkern"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woodkern
Referring to the Irish warriors who dwelt in the woods, in affiliation with their counterpart "Gallowglass" warriors. (From what I understand at least?)

The very name itself seems so evocative and legendary in its sound...
I love the notion of wild outlaws dwelling in the woods, and all of the stories that it could entail?

So my initial thought for a name was something along the lines of:
"the Woodkern's Ghost"
Or
"woodkern's Memory"
?

This is something I'd especially love everyone's opinion on. As I love to start with a thematic idea for each of my swords first, and then built the entire piece with that idea in mind.

Also, I would love everyone's critical opinion and ideas on my design shown above!
What do you like or dislike about it?
Any of the materials or their colors could be changed of course.
What about size, dimensions, proportions?? Historical accuracy?

So please, share your thoughts if you have any!

I'm thrilled to bring this to life, and even more thrilled to document the process of making it and sharing it all with you.

Cheers!

- David

William Scheuch · Posted: Thu 08 May, 2014 10:57 pm Post subject:

Thanks for posting that. You are pure delight to deal with and can't recommend your services enough. Looking forward to the fruits of this project.

Nat Lamb · Posted: Fri 09 May, 2014 7:40 am Post subject:

Not wanting to derail this thread onto a tangent, but does anyone have any information about the ( I guess) parrying gauntlets some of the images show on cords around guy's necks or worn on the left hand? Construction and/or usage, because I am intrigued by them

Kevin P Molloy · Posted: Thu 13 Nov, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject:

Did this project ever get completed? I would like to see the pictures.

David DelaGardelle · Industry Professional

Hey Kevin! (and anyone else reading) Wink

I definitely have not completed this project yet. But in the past few weeks I've finally made a solid start on it. Happy

the past few months have been crazy with traveling and trying to finish up prior commissioned projects.
I've actually decided to take a long break from accepting any new commissions for the foreseeable future, and am now just working on finishing up my back log (including this piece) as well as forging some new swords that I've always dreamed of personally crafting, which I'll be listing for sale soon on a first-come-first-serve basis to any interested buyers.

I dont have any photos of this swords blade yet, which I've now begun.

But I do have a revised version of the digital render! Which William and I discusses, and realized that a 2 handed grip would be a much more enjoyable route to take:

William is beyond awesome and enjoyable to work with, and has been extremely kind, patient, and understanding with me and all of life's craziness.
So I'm looking forward to really bringing his sword to life! And getting other projects out of the way so I can focus more on it.

I'll be traveling overseas with my wife next week, on a 3+ week trip through Ireland, Scotland, and England visiting some friends and family.
And I'm especially looking forward to seeing some swords of this time period in the museum in Dublin. Wink

Photos soon to come!!