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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 3:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I just happen to have the book in question kicking around under my desk, I'll save Stephen the effort.

I don't think the Stilicho hilt furniture looks like Sasanian at all, but I do have to admit that what we can see of his scabbard does bear a marked resemblence to one of the Sasanian carvings at Bishapur.



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"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Paul PM sent.

Thanks for attaching the pics Matthew. As I said above I'm not entirely convinced of the swords Iranian origin, but depending on which way you interperate it, I can the possibility. To me this arguement rests on whether you interperate the sword to have a small upper guard between the grip and the pommel, or whether it's merely a ferule bellow a mushroom shaped pommel like on the reconstructed sassinian sword posted by Matthew. One thing that I find very strange, is the shape of the grip. Unlike most Roman grips with their carved finger ridges, it has an almost vase shaped grip, has anyone here every seen anything like this elsewhere?

Éirinn go Brách
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
One thing that I find very strange, is the shape of the grip. Unlike most Roman grips with their carved finger ridges, it has an almost vase shaped grip, has anyone here every seen anything like this elsewhere?


Maybe.....
I visited the National Museum in Budapest a few years ago and took a pic of this group of Avar swords. Unfortunately it was with a 2nd generation digital camera which lacked a decent autofocus, so it's not the best pic in the world. However, the sword on the right, despite it's typical two point Avar suspension, has hilt furniture that looks like it might be close in style to the Stilicho sword.

If anyone's got a better picture or more info on this one, I'd really appreciate it as I've yet to pursuade my partner that she'd really like to go back to Hungary for a weekend break.



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José-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi.

There must be the fate, but now I am researching academic literature, and other sources, that could reveal how were the visigoth swords after the Migration times. I refer the so-called Regnum Gothorum of Toledo, and, especially, from the sixth century till its end, at the year 711.

It's, really, a difficult aim (or a mission impossible), because there are very few remains of visigoth weapons well preserved in the Iberian peninsula between fifth and eight centuries. First, because the habits of the Visigoth people who settled in Hispania were very different from those of the other Germanic communities: eg, it was common that the ritual offerings in the graves were humble, even if the dead were of high rank people, only some food, the civilian clothing, and little else. Second, for the Mediterranean climate, that is enough dry for maintain our soils in an oxidising environment (here, in Spain, we don't have nor anaerobic, nor reducing conditions, as in northern Europe); then, iron remains and organic objects disappear quickly.

So, we just can have some sword blades, and only one or two hilts, always incomplete. Despite this grim picture, I hope to reach some conclusions as soon as possible.

Saludos.















Ecce, iam meum patrem video
Ecce, iam meam matrem video
Ecce, iam meas sorores ac meos fratres video
Ecce, iam meam gentem totam ab initio video
Ecce illi me iam vocant
Et illi me rogant meum locum inter se accipere
Apud Averni portas sunt
Ubi viri fortes æterne vivant


Last edited by José-Manuel Benito on Wed 29 Feb, 2012 12:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In this thread, Felix Kunze posted pictures from a sword found in Boe, Norway, which also bears a lot of similarity to the "Stilicho" sword.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=20

And here's a better picture of the Avar swords in Budapest:
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?autoco...mp;img=560
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
In this thread, Felix Kunze posted pictures from a sword found in Boe, Norway, which also bears a lot of similarity to the "Stilicho" sword.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=20

And here's a better picture of the Avar swords in Budapest:
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?autoco...mp;img=560


Ahh, thanks for that Paul...an interesting shape but not curved as I thought it might be.

I don't think that the 'Illerup/Boe' style of hilts are what we're looking for either (gorgeous though they are).
The most distinguishing feature of the Stilicho dyptic sword is the way that the grip curves in at the bottom before the guard. As Stephen said "almost vase shaped". It's a shape you see on some small sword grips of the 18th century but not on swords of the late Roman/early migration period.

Perhaps it really is just artistic license?

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While were talking about vase shaped grips, I had forgot that Greek xiphoi had them. A lovely newly found one can be seen here

www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&...;id=307875

Not that I'm saying that this has anything to do with Stilicho's sword, but it does have a similarly shaped grip.

Éirinn go Brách
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Bunker wrote:
Ahh, thanks for that Paul...an interesting shape but not curved as I thought it might be.
These Avar swords keep reminding me of Chinese Han-era dao's...
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo.html

Matthew Bunker wrote:
I don't think that the 'Illerup/Boe' style of hilts are what we're looking for either (gorgeous though they are).
The most distinguishing feature of the Stilicho dyptic sword is the way that the grip curves in at the bottom before the guard. As Stephen said "almost vase shaped". It's a shape you see on some small sword grips of the 18th century but not on swords of the late Roman/early migration period.

Perhaps it really is just artistic license?


At least the Boe sword may have a somewhat similar lower guard / pommel configuration. But you are right, it's not conclusive as the vase shape is missing.

The reference to the Xiphos is interesting, and if we go for "artistic license" that could be it.

But I keep thinking that I've seen similar Sassanid swords somewhere... But where??? WTF?!

P.S. I hope you both have received the pics. Let me know if you haven't.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Paul, funny I had the very same thought about the similarity of these Avar swords to those of the Han, it's possible that the Chinese swords influenced those of the Avar, and other Eurasian steppe nomads, the same way as the Chinese borrowed the idea of the P shaped scabbard mounts from the steppe nomads.

Oh and I recieved you'r email Paul, thanks very much for the pics. I had sent you a reply but I just noticed that the email has failed, so I've sent you another one.

Éirinn go Brách
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Hi Paul, funny I had the very same thought about the similarity of these Avar swords to those of the Han,
Another thing that keeps bugging me is the apparent similarity of Hun swords and Han jian. Although the fittings are usually different, the blades are quite similar.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding the pictures from the Krefeld-Gellep swords, it finally occurred to me that Jeroen Zuiderwijk must also have them on his website, since we visited the museum together... Duh... Blush

Anyway, here it is, third link from the bottom:
http://1501bc.com/page/index2.html
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Wilhelm S.





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PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Regarding the pictures from the Krefeld-Gellep swords, it finally occurred to me that Jeroen Zuiderwijk must also have them on his website, since we visited the museum together... Duh... Blush

Anyway, here it is, third link from the bottom:
http://1501bc.com/page/index2.html


Well my boss is going to be none to happy with you as I spend the rest of the day perusing pictures. I however thank you from the bottom of my heart!
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm S. wrote:
Well my boss is going to be none to happy with you as I spend the rest of the day perusing pictures. I however thank you from the bottom of my heart!


Maybe strange, but for a moment I really thought you were talking about a shield boss rather than a manager. Confused Big Grin

Anyway, your thanks should go to Jeroen. Wink
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
http://1501bc.com/page/index2.html


Thank you Paul I love Jeroen's site. So many things to admire, ponder and revisit over and over. I remember the first time I came across it. Must be years ago now Eek! But i go back often and just browse. We live in such great times to have this kind of access to the past. It truly is a master class to just devote yourself to going through these collections more than once and find the things that speak to you and pursue them.

Thanks
Craig
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Paul for the reminder of Jeroen's site, I haven't looked at it in a while. I never noticed that there were pics from Krefeld on there. Do you happen to know what the grip material of the gold and garnet, ring pommelled sword? Looks like bone to me.
Éirinn go Brách
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Matt Corbin




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Completely by accident I stumbled across some pictures of a reproduction of the Avar swords from Hungary.





And a possible belt arrangement:





More can be found here

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