Early Migration Monosteel Swords? -- myArmoury.com

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: Early Migration Monosteel Swords?

Alright,

I'm looking to either make or commission an early migration spatha (I have for a while now actually), perhaps like the ones found at Illerup, Vimose, or maybe Kragehul.

Since I'm not a super experienced blacksmith and have never done forge-welding, I'm thinking that if I attempt to make it rather than commission it, it would be best to make a monosteel blade.

But, is there any instance of non-pattern welded spathas in this period? Would monosteel blades in this period be of pretty poor quality? Let me know what you guys think. Thanks.

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject:

If nearly all of them were pattern welded, I may try my hand at welding a steel edge onto a "cable damascus" core, though I don't know how successful I'll be in that. Laughing Out Loud

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 6:25 am Post subject:

That's a good question (meaning that I don't have a definitive answer). But just to keep this thread alive until someone notices it who does have the answer, one can apply some general knowledge and logic:

- so far as we know, Europeans did not know how to achieve a consistent quality of carbon steel during the migration period
- thus the best swords were made by pattern welding
- it stands to reason that some people must have tried making them without pattern welding, or simply did not know how
- presumably most of these were pretty crappy, with too high or too low carbon, or with a consistency that varied inappropriately but,
- by sheer luck some of them might have worked out well.

Now, hopefully someone can give you a definitive, archeology-based answer!

Paul Hansen · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:25 am Post subject:

Yes, quite migration age swords were not pattern welded. Krefeld-Gellep grave 43 and Hemmingen grave 21 for instance, dated around 500. In the late migration period, pattern welding became much more common, but even then not all swords were pattern welded.

Regarding the metallurgy or quality of these monosteel blades, I couldn't say too much though.

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject:

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject:

Those of you out there who have done any "bench grinder forging" or stock removal to make a sword, where do you get the material? Would it be more cost effective to just have a sword made by someone else?

Jared Smith · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject:

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject:

Paul Hansen · Posted: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject:

Richard Hare · Posted: Fri 11 Sep, 2009 6:13 am Post subject:

Myles,

Wouldn't a length of truck spring be a good start?..............from a wreckers?

I know nothing (yet) of making sword blades, but it works well for knives!

Just an idea, as truck springs are tough!

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Fri 11 Sep, 2009 6:58 am Post subject:

Elnathan Barnett · Posted: Sat 12 Sep, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject:

According to Ian Peirce in Swords of the Viking Age, the Geibig type 1, a late migration-era type has a thickness of .36 to .52 cm at the base. That amounts to .14 to .20 inches. I know that is not the exact period you are looking at , but I would double check to make sure that you really want a 1/4" thick piece of steel, depending on what you mean by "spatha."

I would have made a sword or two myself before now was I able to get a piece of steel thinner than 1/4" at a price I can afford. As it is I don't have the energy to grind a 1/4" bar to 3/16 tapering to 1/8 on my little grinder! I 'll have to wait until I have access to a forge. Sad

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Sat 12 Sep, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject:

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Fri 25 Sep, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject:

Edit: Link wasn't working.

Would something like this be appropriate? I know it's a Viking-style sword, therefore a bit later than the period in question. What do you folks think?

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~OH24...Blade.html

Nathaniel C. · Posted: Fri 25 Sep, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject:

I've been looking at that Tinker/Hanwei blade for a while now as I have similar ideas to your own. I personally don't think it would work well as a Spatha blade though. (I was thinking of doing a more viking styled hilt on it) The geometry just looks all off. The tapered fuller looks almost out of place on a viking sword so putting in a hilt of several hundred years prior would look quite odd, I think. Keep in mind This is a very amateur opinion. Confused

Not to be self promoting but I know a guy who is planning on selling bare Deltin blades. You might like the blade off of they're "Lombard Sword." It would be a much better fit for what you want, though somewhat more expensive I think. I'm not sure that he actually has the blades yet either.

From everything I've heard the Tinker/Hanwei is a really good blade especially when you look at the cost. I just don't think it fits the time period. If you do buy it though, you might be able to sand down the edges of the super defined fuller to make it look a little more accurate to the period. That's what I've been thinking of doing. That and I think the tip should be more rounded but that wouldn't be impossible either. Since your going for the migration era maybe a spatulate tip would be the way to go.

-Just some thoughts.

Myles Mulkey · Posted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 7:57 am Post subject:

Hadrian Coffin · Industry Professional

Hello,
In general migration period swords are extremely thin, thin enough to sag under their own weight. If you are looking for non pattern-welded migration swords I do recall one iron cored sword with a welded on steel edge, I don't however remember what museum it was in. There was someone on this forum who had a way of etching a blade to give it the appearance of having a piled structure, you may be able to look around for that person. Another thing you may be able to do is order a blade from Paul Binns. His blades are quite good, and reasonably priced, I'd try shooting him an email.
http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/ he's located in the UK but shipping isn't as pricey or time consuming as you may expect.
Best,
Hadrian

Kirk Lee Spencer

Joseph E. · Posted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 1:35 am Post subject:

First Post!

I am nearly finished with a 'stock removal' Latene Celtic sword made from 1/4" x 1.5" steel bar stock. The 'how to' thread from the sword forum is good advice (wish I'd found it before I started). 1/4" seems fine for the tang, as long as you don't make it too narrow.

I used a cutoff wheel on an angle grinder to cut out the blank (tang and point) and hours of grinding to form the cross section (I also went with a lenticular shape, with no fuller). As I didn't find a wider bar, I had to go with very little (almost no) distal taper and a rather blunt tip(La Tene III style).

My advice with the grinding is to get ahold of a larger grinder than 4"-4.5". I killed mine by the time I was done. Rent or borrow a 9" grinder for the cross section. It'll go faster and use fewer discs. Also, grinding spot-heats the steel rather quickly--a purple color change in the metal is an indication that you've removed some of the temper, weakening that spot. Longer strokes allow air-cooling and avoid overheating the stock. I periodically quenched mine once I was near my desired cross section as well, to maintain/increase hardness. I may even torch-heat and brine-quench the edge, at least on the last several inches of the business end.

My biggest problem was peening the tang over the pommel. I heated the tang end, peened it, but also bent the tang inside the wooden pommel, causing the wood to crack. I made 3 pommels before I decided to rivet it on and peen it less tightly. If you're using a brass pommel, you may not have the same issue.

Anyway, my sword looks pretty good so far, but as a first try, don't expect CNC production quality. Good luck!

Myles Mulkey