| Author |
Message |
Allen Foster
|
 Posted: Sat 12 Apr, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Best Cutting Longsword in the $500 range? |
 |
|
|
What is the best cutting longsword in the $500 range or below and why? Anything more expensive than that and most people are afraid to scratch it.
|
|
   |
 |
|
P. Cha
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
The new valiant practical line seems to be a very nice cutting sword.
Atrim are also very good swords...although it is pushing that 500 limit somewhat.
I think those are leading the pack ATM...
|
|
|
|
|
Allen Andrews
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
The review on the Albion Armorers Squire Line Late 13th Century Great Sword seems to suggest that it is a decent cutter.
" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "
Faramir son of Denethor
Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
|
|
|
|
|
William Goodwin
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've really been impressed with the performnce of the Windlass 15thc. longsword I recently
got.
Too, the new Hanwei / Tinker collaboration longsword and bastard sword will be well worth
looking at...........
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My Generation2 Dordogne is a very good quality cutter and the soon to be available HenriV looks even better as there is a great improvement in the handle aesthetics and proportions: Assuming the qualities of durability and good steel is maintained, and I have no reason to think they won't be as good, the Generation2 swords have the potential to be among the best on a quality/price basis and now seem to be getting much better looking like period swords.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Allen Foster
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | My Generation2 Dordogne is a very good quality cutter and the soon to be available HenriV looks even better as there is a great improvement in the handle aesthetics and proportions: Assuming the qualities of durability and good steel is maintained, and I have no reason to think they won't be as good, the Generation2 swords have the potential to be among the best on a quality/price basis and now seem to be getting much better looking like period swords. |
Thanks Jean. I'll look into Generation 2. I've handled some really well balanced swords lately but they didn't seem like there was enough weight behind them to do any serious cutting. Being new to this its difficult for me to detemine what the right mixture of balance and weight is for a good cutting sword.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paul Watson
Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 395
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If it is to your taste the Angus Trim tac longsword is meant to be a bit of a beast. Not at all historical looking but this sword with a blackened finish is very visually striking and is on my "to get" hit list.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Allen Foster wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | My Generation2 Dordogne is a very good quality cutter and the soon to be available HenriV looks even better as there is a great improvement in the handle aesthetics and proportions: Assuming the qualities of durability and good steel is maintained, and I have no reason to think they won't be as good, the Generation2 swords have the potential to be among the best on a quality/price basis and now seem to be getting much better looking like period swords. |
Thanks Jean. I'll look into Generation 2. I've handled some really well balanced swords lately but they didn't seem like there was enough weight behind them to do any serious cutting. Being new to this its difficult for me to determine what the right mixture of balance and weight is for a good cutting sword. |
That would depend a lot on the type of sword and it's intended use: The Dordogne is a type XVa and it designed with the thrust as a priority but like other type XV like the A & A Black Prince are surprisingly effective cutters.
A type XIII like the Albion Duke is much more of a dedicated cutter.
The Generation2 are currently very strong and overbuilt to a degree but not so much that they are too heavy. The styles of the handle construction is not very historical and the handles are a bit too thick ( some of this can be fixed as a home project by slimming down the wood grips and recovering with leather. The non historical metal plates can also be filed down a bit and hidden by the new cover: In other words, it is possible to make them look much better with a little work if one has the skill and knowledge to do it well ).
These "appearance flaws " i.e. looking like modern swords is really not an issue if historical accuracy is not a high priority.
The new models I mentioned seem to be much improved in looks and historical accuracy and should be more interesting for most of us here who care about this aspect to varying degrees. This may not have been much of an issue for the average buyer of lower cost swords ( lower cost but well made as opposed to low cost wallhangers that are not sound or safe for actual use ),
Bottom line is that the Generation2 product is going in the right direction and becoming an even better value.
The Valiant swords designed by Angus Trim as well as the Hanwei swords designed by Tinker also seem like a good option to look at.
The Windlass product is also not bad: Often looking right and of decent using quality and offer a large variety of types from many historical periods.
The lower end swords are seriously catching up to the higher end production swords by Angus Trim, Albion, A & A or OlliN.
After this prices go up steeply for custom work.
Note: There may be other quality makers I know less well that I haven't mentioned. ( not exhaustive list ). Also this is my
" opinion" and milage might vary.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
One thing about Gen 2, both old and new, that I recently discovered is that they are very soft...probably in the 30s, maybe low 40s (rockwell).
Now in the past, I would have cried about how terrible this is, but I no longer think this is necessarily a bad thing. Being that soft, they are more prone to bending, however, they are also easier to straighten. Swords bend. That's a fact. If you haven't bent a sword, you haven't used it enough...keep using it, and somethign will happen, a heavy mat will fall off a stand, you'll botch a cut, you'll hit the cuting stand, etc. Eventually, it's going to happen, and it's not a big deal...straighten it out if you can, if you can't, send it to someone who knows how to do it. Historical swords ranged in hardness from very hard to iron, and so Gen 2 clearly falls within those parameters.
I had to straighten several swords at our last cutting event, and two of them were Gen 2 swords...the same sword, but different generations. One was their new and well balanced one, the other one of their older designs. Both cut well, and both straightened easily. I consider that acceptable.
Just don't get me started on their historical accuracy (or rather lack thereof)... 
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Michael Edelson wrote: | One thing about Gen 2, both old and new, that I recently discovered is that they are very soft...probably in the 30s, maybe low 40s (rockwell).
Just don't get me started on their historical accuracy (or rather lack thereof)... |
I think I read that one run of their version of the Black prince sword had a bad heat treat but I seriously doubt that my Dordogne is that soft since I hit a nail full force when test cutting and the damage to the sword was a very minor that disappeared almost completely after some light hand sharpening. ( I can't even see the 2 or three places on the blade that hit the nail but I can just barely feel them if I run my finger along the edge ). ( Yes I managed to hit the nail more than once ! ).
You may be right but I'm puzzled about it ??? ( I'm sure you are right about those you had personal experience with that turned out soft ).
As to the historical accuracy I agree as far as the current line, except that the HenriV that should be available in June seems to me to have corrected the worse of those problems as far as I can see it in the pic of the prototype.
Link to Topic about the HenriV: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12924
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
William Goodwin
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Could kick myself for forgetting to mention these folks....
Armour Class.....if their hand & a half handles & cuts anything like my Mortuary it's
definitely another good choice to consider.
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | I think I read that one run of their version of the Black prince sword had a bad heat treat but I seriously doubt that my Dordogne is that soft since I hit a nail full force when test cutting and the damage to the sword was a very minor that disappeared almost completely after some light hand sharpening. |
"Full force" is relative.
Your experience actually confirms the softness...if you damaged the edge but then that damage "disappeared" with light hand sharpening, what happened is that you rolled a soft edge and then rolled it back with the stone.
Besides, don't equate softness with weakness. I actually prefer a softer sword these days, for several reasons. As long as it doesn't bend in normal use and holds an edge for a decent amount of time. Soft swords are easier to repair, both in terms of finish and damage (edge dagame, bending).
| Quote: | | You may be right but I'm puzzled about it ??? ( I'm sure you are right about those you had personal experience with that turned out soft ). |
The swords that were bent at our event were made years apart...one was the old "crowbar" style, very blade heavy, and the second was the new, lighter style. So if your sword is a lot harder, that speaks to very shody quality control and a heat treatment more unpredictable than that of Windlass Steelcrafts. I'd rather have the softness.
| Quote: | | As to the historical accuracy I agree as far as the current line, except that the HenriV that should be available in June seems to me to have corrected the worse of those problems as far as I can see it in the pic of the prototype. |
The cross is still too thick...at least it looks that way in the photos.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Michael;
Oh, by light sharpening I mean NOT using a belt grinder and not having to remove much material: I used a diamond hone and the steel didn't seem soft to me. Been sharpening 60 R.C. knives for decades and really soft steel feels different, but that doesn't mean that my impressions of hardness are accurate and that I can tell by feel the difference between 50 R.C. and 60 R.C. but maybe 30 R.C. ? Oh, I just checked using a very new and fresh file and it does cut the steel fairly easily.
( Oh, not saying that this sword is anywhere near to 60 R.C. : Not that it should be How close to 30 R.C. or closer to 50 R.C. ???).
Did a quick and not too extreme flex test and with a 30 degree bend it returns to true. ( Didn't want to actually bend it ).
I also, hit the 4" X 4" post on which the target pumpkins were stuck on deliberately two or three times and the sword cut into the post 3" to 4" and my sword didn't take a bend: Not that I'm saying that this contradicts your impressions and I'm only giving you what I observed.
Difficulty in hand sharpening seems about the same with the Dordogne as with the Windlass Coustille I hand sharpened from their standard unsharpened edge. A Windlass medieval chopper that I sharpened has much softer steel than the Coustille and the point on it bent when I hit a phone book but was easy to straiten.
Without some laboratory testing it's hard to quantify these vague impressions with any certainty except for very ballpark values.
Cheers.
Jean
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Luka Borscak
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
I think that Gen2 swords are very different with every new batch. Some are very durable and well tempered and some are pretty bad. One friend of mine had their blunt stage sword, it broke soon after bought and he could saw different colors through the profile and the guy in the shop told him that it is the sign of bad tempering... And it broke just too easily... I bent mine Gen2 12th century sword from the same batch. I was cutting branches and I know it's not recommended, but it bent too much too easy and my 15th century Windlass longsword endured even thicker branches and more abuse... All in all, I think you are taking a risk when buying a Gen2 sword.
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Luka Borscak wrote: | | I think that Gen2 swords are very different with every new batch. Some are very durable and well tempered and some are pretty bad. One friend of mine had their blunt stage sword, it broke soon after bought and he could saw different colors through the profile and the guy in the shop told him that it is the sign of bad tempering... And it broke just too easily... I bent mine Gen2 12th century sword from the same batch. I was cutting branches and I know it's not recommended, but it bent too much too easy and my 15th century Windlass longsword endured even thicker branches and more abuse... All in all, I think you are taking a risk when buying a Gen2 sword. |
Interesting: Then I would be sure to buy from a dealer with a good return policy if one got a bad one.
All I can say for sure is that mine is a good one and the good ones seem really good.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional
Location: Tennessee Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 72
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I wished nothing like that would happen but it does. We do have tighter controls (what can be done when we do not have a controlled environment and all is done as centuries ago) and they are getting tighter.
Last year is when we went to even thinner blades and realized too late that during polish the blades were getting to warm too fast and that was an awful issue to deal with. Since then we quickly fixed that issue and have more check and balances in place.
Now I am not going to lie and say it will never happen again, because I am human and our foundry is human and we are not perfect. And I refuse to be a machine. .
But we are ways better than 4 or 5 years ago. 
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
I for one am confused about all the negative reaction to the idea of softer blades. Added resistance to bending comes at the cost of added difficulty in straightening, and longer edge holding comes at the cost of more difficult sharpening and edge repair.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Luka Borscak
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
My sword wasn't soft, just had bad heat treatment. It's edge was very hard, held edge excellent, didn't roll or chip... The same thing with broken blunt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
P. Cha
|
| Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Shurg, I think it's that 30 number. It does seem really low. 40s yeah, but 30s?!? I had an old cleaver that was RC 30ish (28-31 range from about 5 tries). I loved that cleaver because you can sharpen it a razor edge with just steel in 3-6 strokes. Sure it dulled fast, but it got back to brand new fast too. I don't think I have ever seen ANY sword that soft. Hell I haven't been able to find any knives that soft to replace that with either.
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic