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Shahril Dzulkifli
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 Posted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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Here is a rare 18th century Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar. It was fashioned from the Turkish Ottoman scimitar and the gold-gilded brass hilt has a scrollwork enclosing an expanded floral pattern chiseled in low relief, comprised of a cross-piece with bud-shaped terminals, a pair of langets, and an integral grip rising to form a bulbous pommel, retaining its original gold-gilded silver tassel. A curved single-edged Damascus steel blade with a watered pattern in its original old gild brass scabbard decorated over the surface with chiseled in low relief scrolling flowers and foliage on a punched ground, with large mounts comprising a pair of suspension mounts and large chape.
This sword is highly prized because of its appearance according to my opinion. Any suggestions?
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Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sat 19 Jan, 2008 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thats a beautiful sword there. Sabers are my favorite sword and, as far as I'm concerned, the curvier, the better. I also really like that hatchet-point. Doesn't get much better than a heavily curved, hatchet-pointed saber. I'd rate it 9/10, only thing it needs for 10/10 is a slightly broader blade perhaps.
How do you like this one (shamelessly stolen from swordforum.com, Russian 1827 saber):
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'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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You know Ian, to me that Russian sabre looks peculiar judging by its appearance. Many sabres don't have that kind of blade.
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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| Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | You know Ian, to me that Russian sabre looks peculiar judging by its appearance. Many sabres don't have that kind of blade. |
Yes, I think it was almost certainly a ceremonial/dress piece. Unfortunately, its not my find and the original poster didn't have a lot of information about it.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Thats a beautiful sword there. Sabres are my favourite sword and, as far as I'm concerned, the curvier, the better. I also really like that hatchet-point. Doesn't get much better than a heavily curved, hatchet-pointed sabre. I'd rate it 9/10, only thing it needs for 10/10 is a slightly broader blade perhaps.
How do you like this one (shamelessly stolen from swordforum.com, Russian 1827 sabre): |
Interesting sabre but I like the look of the less exaggeratedly curved one better, as well as have serious doubts about how such a sabre handles ! For ceremonial use it may not matter, but as with any feature there comes a point were it seems overdone.  
As to handling: I have an original shamshir with a good amount of curve in the blade, but much less than this one and the COG is 9" from the guard but also feels to be at some point over the top of the back of the blade giving waggy/wigglely feel if one moves the blade quickly from side to side: With the blade in the pic, I would imagine that the COG would be many inches over the blade floating in space and feel very strange in hand. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Quote: | Thats a beautiful sword there. Sabres are my favourite sword and, as far as I'm concerned, the curvier, the better. I also really like that hatchet-point. Doesn't get much better than a heavily curved, hatchet-pointed sabre. I'd rate it 9/10, only thing it needs for 10/10 is a slightly broader blade perhaps.
How do you like this one (shamelessly stolen from swordforum.com, Russian 1827 sabre): |
Interesting sabre but I like the look of the less exaggeratedly curved one better, as well as have serious doubts about how such a sabre handles ! For ceremonial use it may not matter, but as with any feature there comes a point were it seems overdone.
As to handling: I have an original shamshir with a good amount of curve in the blade, but much less than this one and the COG is 9" from the guard but also feels to be at some point over the top of the back of the blade giving waggy/wigglely feel if one moves the blade quickly from side to side: With the blade in the pic, I would imagine that the COG would be many inches over the blade floating in space and feel very strange in hand. |
Indeed, I imagine it would be nearly impossible to wield. Just looking at the tip in relation to the handle, to make a thrust your fist would need to be pointing nearly vertically towards the ground. By the way, I also find the curvature overdone (who wouldn't?), but in so many production blades I find it "underdone", just not quite exciting enough! I suppose the right balance can only be found in originals or custom pieces. That said Shahril's find has very nearly what I'd consider the perfect curvature.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Ian: The first one shown has what I think the maximum amount or even the optimum amount of curve in a " using " sabre meant for use with a draw cut. A draw cut that just happens with no special effort and due 99% to the geometry of the blade.
It's also at the degree of curve that is still very good to look at. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I can almost see a very nice looking lady dancing with this really curved saber on her head.
Maybe that's what it's for?
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Also take note of where the suspension rings are located on the scabbard of the Russian sword. This saber would be worn with the edge facing up.
Jonathan
Last edited by Jonathan Hopkins on Thu 17 Jan, 2008 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anders Backlund
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I rather like sabers, though I prefer more modest curvatures to the blade. These shamshir-type swords have a tendency to be too curved to appeal to my sense of aesthetics, which is too bad as they are nice weapons otherwise.
The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.
"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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To be exact, scimitars are not used for combat by aristocrats in Hungary but are used as their symbol of power like royals.
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Not that it matters I suppose, but do you own this sword?
Your post doesn't make it clear (to me) that this is in your collection or in someone else's.
I ask because I wonder how it feels in the hand (and if it's locked up in a museum case you probably can't swing it around).
It is really a gorgeous blade.
Makes me itch to handle it...
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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Thomas, I don't own that sword. If you want that sword you can buy it at Hundred & One Antiques (www.antiques-arms.com)
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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| Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Thomas, I don't own that sword. If you want that sword you can buy it at Hundred & One Antiques (www.antiques-arms.com) |
Not anymore, its been sold 
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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| Ian Hutchison wrote: | | Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Thomas, I don't own that sword. If you want that sword you can buy it at Hundred & One Antiques (www.antiques-arms.com) |
Not anymore, its been sold |
Never fails.
Always a day late and a dollar short.
Anyone done any business with those folks? Good experiences? Comments?
I see a couple of other possibles there.
But that one was very nice.
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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| Thomas Watt wrote: | | Ian Hutchison wrote: | | Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Thomas, I don't own that sword. If you want that sword you can buy it at Hundred & One Antiques (www.antiques-arms.com) |
Not anymore, its been sold |
Never fails.
Always a day late and a dollar short.
Anyone done any business with those folks? Good experiences? Comments?
I see a couple of other possibles there.
But that one was very nice. |
I have had no experiences with them but most of their stuff looks legit. However, I would always exercise caution regarding "antiques" from the Far East (e.g. China/Japan). Most of their Middle eastern/African/European stuff looks completely real and interesting.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 19 Jan, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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(one thing, we call this kind of sword "szablya", or saber, not scimitar... )
The other is, aristocrats (and anyone who had enough money for it, btw) did use these in combat, or to be more exact, mostly in duels. I'm too lazy right now, but if you wish, I can dig up some examples even from the 19th century, when these were worn like smallswords elsewhere, as a part of dress, but they used their sabers more often than others their smallswords...
(of course, there are exceptions and exceptions of exceptions, as always )
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Sat 19 Jan, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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At last! We have found ourselves an expert on Hungarian swords. Perhaps Adam himself can tell us more about that sword.
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Sadly I can't say much more... I'm absolutely not an expert, just wanted to add these bits of info, which most hungarians know from history classes... Last thing that may be interesting (or not), is that it looks exactly like most of the 19th century hungarian sabers from here.
If I was bothering anyone, feel free to delete my posts. 
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Luka Tic
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| Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Hungarian Aristocrat's Scimitar |
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| Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Thomas, I don't own that sword. If you want that sword you can buy it at Hundred & One Antiques (www.antiques-arms.com) |
this one caught my attention
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Luka
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This is a standard topic