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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

I'm thinking about making myself a buckler, and was looking at examples in artwork (mainly in Arma's articles) as well as existing modern reproductions, when something struck me as strange...

On most modern repros the handle seems to be a solid bar spanning across the umbo, riveted to the face of the buckler at both ends. The bar is generally of uniform width, except in GDFB bucklers where it is formed by flattening a tube. Anyhow, I cannot find a modern buckler that looks like what is found in two important period sources: Ms I.33 and Codex Manesse.

Here are two examples of what I'm talking about:
I.33: 18v (36)
Manesse: Plate 62

The handle seems to span the whole diameter of the buckler, merging into the rim. And its width is not constant, the handle widens as it goes towards the rim. Of course, it could be just an artistic convention, but still... Which construction method could lead to such a shape?

Honestly my first thought was a strap of leather that shrinks in the middle due to the grip of the hand, but I doubt it would be very practical; maybe the orientation of the buckler would be hard to control.

The other solution I see would be a wooden handle that is wider at the extremities to reinforce the fixation points, and thinner in the middle to allow for a comfortable grip. I think it would even be possible to have an oval grip this way, pointing towards the face of the buckler. I don't think a metal handle would have been made in that shape...

Obviously the material and shape of the handle could have a strong influence on the buckler's handling. So I'm curious to hear the opinion of the forum members...

Regards

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Vincent
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I don't think a metal handle would have been made in that shape...


Why not?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I don't think a metal handle would have been made in that shape...

Why not?


Well, the point I can see in having the wider extremities is having more material around the point of fixation. For wood or leather, it could be necessary because of the relative fragility of the material. But with metal, wouldn't it be overkill? And heavy, too...

But you're right, it's quite an uneducated guess. Maybe that's just the shape of the thing that seemed organic to me. Anyway, I have yet to see a metal handle that looks like this... Hence my questions. But if you have an explanation involving a metal handle, I'll gladly take it Happy

There is also the fact that I'm nearly sure that my (non-existent) skills in metal working will not allow me to do this in metal Worried

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Vincent
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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

I make the handles on my bucklers similar to the ones you show. They widen for the fixation point and narrow for the grip. And the grip isn't circular so as to help orient the buckler face.

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:


The handle seems to span the whole diameter of the buckler, merging into the rim. And its width is not constant, the handle widens as it goes towards the rim. Of course, it could be just an artistic convention, but still... Which construction method could lead to such a shape?

Well, anything but it would seem more necessary with wood or leather. If it was done with steel I'd expect some decorative aspect to it (like a leaf shape), but that's far from certain.

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:

Honestly my first thought was a strap of leather that shrinks in the middle due to the grip of the hand, but I doubt it would be very practical; maybe the orientation of the buckler would be hard to control.

Works fine with hardened leather.

Thanks for posting the pics.

Cheers,
-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
George Hill wrote:
Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I don't think a metal handle would have been made in that shape...

Why not?


Well, the point I can see in having the wider extremities is having more material around the point of fixation. For wood or leather, it could be necessary because of the relative fragility of the material. But with metal, wouldn't it be overkill? And heavy, too... Worried


No, it would spread out the points of contact, and increase the leverage applied against the buckler's face. It would also be easy for a metal smith to make. You'd want about three rivets on each end in a fighting tool.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think those bucklers may be bowl-shaped, ie. turned on a lathe. That might explain the handle attachment. Can't remember the source for this, so I'll have to dig some... Confused

Johan Schubert Moen
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
I make the handles on my bucklers similar to the ones you show. They widen for the fixation point and narrow for the grip. And the grip isn't circular so as to help orient the buckler face.


That's interesting. Any chance you could post a picture? I'm trying to gather as many examples of functional bucklers as I can at the moment...

Steven H wrote:
Well, anything but it would seem more necessary with wood or leather. If it was done with steel I'd expect some decorative aspect to it (like a leaf shape), but that's far from certain.


Yes, I was thinking about the same. The shape makes me think of something under tension. Of course it would be feasible in metal, but I wonder if it does not originate in something else...

For example, I saw that rawhide shrinks as it dries. Has anyone ever tried to fix the ends of a wet strap of rawhide to the rim, and let it dry? Would it make a decent handle of that shape?

Thanks for your help!

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Vincent
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

[quote="Vincent Le Chevalier
The handle seems to span the whole diameter of the buckler, merging into the rim. And its width is not constant, the handle widens as it goes towards the rim. Of course, it could be just an artistic convention, but still... Which construction method could lead to such a shape ?
Obviously the material and shape of the handle could have a strong influence on the buckler's handling. So I'm curious to hear the opinion of the forum members... [/quote]

Hi Vincent......I think that there's some detail missing in the manuscript art. The handles would have been metal with a wood grip riveted on or else totally wood. They are really just a minature version of a Viking / Anglo-Saxon arangement.
The metal could be 2mm. This type of grip was often flaired out at the ends...sort of like a little Fleur-de-Lys. They are not hard to make .........you can cut it out with a Jig-saw or else I could forge one up for you..... no prob. !
Cheers !

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan S. Moen wrote:
I think those bucklers may be bowl-shaped, ie. turned on a lathe. That might explain the handle attachment. Can't remember the source for this, so I'll have to dig some... Confused


The bucklers certainly are convex in the two examples I posted, as they appear seen in profile in other plates. You're right that it should affect the handle. In fact it seems that the handle is quite deep inside the hollow shape, as the fighters' hands are completely hidden in those instances.

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Vincent
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

Merv Cannon wrote:
Hi Vincent......I think that there's some detail missing in the manuscript art. The handles would have been metal with a wood grip riveted on or else totally wood. They are really just a minature version of a Viking / Anglo-Saxon arangement.
The metal could be 2mm. This type of grip was often flaired out at the ends...sort of like a little Fleur-de-Lys. They are not hard to make .........you can cut it out with a Jig-saw or else I could forge one up for you..... no prob. !
Cheers !


Thanks Merv, I think I understand what you mean... It is indeed highly possible that I try to see too much in these drawings. I guess what struck me most is that in the assembly you describe, the handle bar would not necessarily reach the rim of the buckler as is shown.

In other words, if I was drawing what I think you describe, it would not look like what is drawn in the manuscripts, even if I omitted rivets or the details of the shape. On the other hand, I'm obviously not a medieval artist Razz

Regards

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Vincent
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Bucklers' handles         Reply with quote

quote]Thanks Merv, I think I understand what you mean... It is indeed highly possible that I try to see too much in these drawings. I guess what struck me most is that in the assembly you describe, the handle bar would not necessarily reach the rim of the buckler as is shown.
In other words, if I was drawing what I think you describe, it would not look like what is drawn in the manuscripts, even if I omitted rivets or the details of the shape. On the other hand, I'm obviously not a medieval artist Razz
Regards[/quote]

Vincent.........Its hard to find photos of the rear side of original Bucklers, but here's one I found from the Wallace Collection. You can see that it resembles the rear of a Viking type shield. Of course that doesnt mean that it was necessarily typical, but just that it survived. It does resemble several in manuscripts, however.
Cheers



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Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect that the images depict round bars that are hammered flat at the ends to facilitate the rivets. The reason you don't see this often in modern bucklers is because not too many people forge their bucklers these days.
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