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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: My new Mercenari's Tailor gauntlets |
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These are really cool and wow they looks SOOOOO REPTILIANT: Almost Sci.fi. + medieval ! I would want these just on looks alone and I can't wait to show them to my WMA instructor. The extremely fast turn around time from initial order to delivery is also incredible: I mentioned I might be interested in a custom set of gauntlets about a month ago and asked a few questions about options and modifications to Allan's regular production models. After a week of back and forth discussion I made the order official, and 3 weeks later they are ready for shipping.
Although I'm not surprised as Allan's customer service is incredible, but the industry standard is more like wait and wait some more and not just a 3 week wait 
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You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Clark
Location: Welland, Ontario Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Those are definately pretty badass. I have no doubt that that's probably some amazing -- if not excessive -- hand protection. Do they wear well? How bout during drills?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Clark wrote: | | Those are definately pretty badass. I have no doubt that that's probably some amazing -- if not excessive -- hand protection. Do they wear well? How bout during drills? |
The pics I requested from Allan before he shipped as I still haven't bought a digital camera and I wanted to be able to post some pics.
The gauntlets look amazing but I should get them some time next week, so it will have to wait for me to say how well they wear. I had Allan buy some fine deerskin gloves to use with the gauntlets that are better quality than the ones he usually uses: I wanted a better fit and more flexibility than the gloves he uses normally. Not that those aren't O.K. but I didn't mind paying extra for a nicer glove.
I may not need these unless and until I start using steel blunts but I like them as part of my armour kit in any case.
The pics were the first time I saw them and I couldn't be happier about what they look like.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Neato!
Are they based on a particular historic example?
Thanks.
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Those look really nice, Jean! I'd definately be interested in hearing more of your impressions about how well they function. I've been thinking about getting a pair of finger gauntlets that had a "clamshell" over them, or at least half of one, for a while now.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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So, it's basically a finger gauntlet with an *extra* layer of mitten protection? Would that be for a combination of dexterity and the whole "armor is a weapon" concept? :-)
Those are very, very cool . . . . . .
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | Neato!
Are they based on a particular historic example?
Thanks. |
Allan may have to chime in with more details but here is a copy of the e-mail ( relevant parts and I don't think that the information is of a nature of confidentiel information as I would not normally just post a copy of a personnal e-mail ).
QUOTE from Allan's e-mail:
They're sort of a sporterized versions of our historical mittens. The thumb rather than our seven plate on leather thumb is a modified Wisby thumb that wraps around the outside of the thumb, there is a small plate over the ball of the thumb and the mitten plates are longer on the inside of the index finger. We have done these mods in the past for various WMA folks as well as SCA and Adrian Empire. In addition is the individually plated fingers like I did for Shane Smiths using the gauntlets from the Avant harness as a starting point.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Allen Andrews
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jun, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: |
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I really like those gauntlets. I can't wait to hear how they perform when handling a sword.
" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "
Faramir son of Denethor
Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jun, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting stuff! How much do they weigh?
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jun, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | Very interesting stuff! How much do they weigh?
M. |
Will let you know when I get them this coming week or next depending on how fast the shipping goes.
Maybe Allan will read this and let us know. ( or I'll e-mail him to ask ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jun, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Jean;
Excellent! As always, it looks as though Allan has come through with the goods in great time. I've been thinking about such mitten/finger gauntlets myself for jousting with, so I may just have to order a pair myself. I like the idea of using nice buckskin gloves for the base, too, so I can have a good "feel" for both reins and lance.
Thanks for posting the photo's, it definitely helps with understanding how they work.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | Very interesting stuff! How much do they weigh?
M. |
Just checked them on a food scale and they weigh around 3 pounds 4 ounces each: They feel lighter than my Wisby, also by Mercenary's Tailor, that weight 2 pounds 8 ounces each. The closer fitting glove make a big difference and where worth the slightly extra cost over the regular gloves. ( The gloves that Allan usually uses to keep the cost down: They are O.K. but of thicker leather and the glove fingers don't fit as closely around one's fingers giving a more sloppy feeling fit in comparison ).
Here is a copy of the e-mail I just sent Allan:
Allan;
Just got them an hour ago and they fit very well and seem very flexible and supple.
The use of the deerskin gloves makes a lot of difference I think compared to the gloves you usually use: Thinner and more supple that give more tactile information. The glove fingers fit closer and this is probably why these fell more secure while the other cloves fell sort of sloppy in fit in comparison.
You might consider offering the better gloves as an option at a small price increase as a choice ? I think the better gloves are worth it for me.
Bottom line I couldn't be happier about them: Fit and aesthetics. Also the turn around time from first talking about them and actually wearing them is unbeatable.
I will probably post a slightly edited version of this e-mail at the end of my myArmoury Topic about them.
REALLY REALLY HAPPY. :^D
Allan is really the best I know when it comes to customer service: There are a few others that come close or might equal him, but there is nobody better. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | Jean;
Excellent! As always, it looks as though Allan has come through with the goods in great time. I've been thinking about such mitten/finger gauntlets myself for jousting with, so I may just have to order a pair myself. I like the idea of using nice buckskin gloves for the base, too, so I can have a good "feel" for both reins and lance.
Thanks for posting the photo's, it definitely helps with understanding how they work.
Cheers!
Gordon |
Gordon well I think for your needs, jousting, you would be hard pressed to find better. 
The mitten plates should give you an extra level of protection. The plate covered fingers give a great deal of dexterity inside the mitten plate and one can slip out of the mitten plates if one need full finger flexibility without having to remove the gauntlets.
I would think that should a lance hit your fingers by accident the mitten plates should take most of the sting out of it.
And since you already know Allan's work firsthand I would encourage you to get these as soon as you can afford them.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | M. Eversberg II wrote: | Very interesting stuff! How much do they weigh?
M. |
Just checked them on a food scale and they weigh around 3 pounds 4 ounces each: |
Good God.  My plate mitten gauntlets for armoured combat don't weigh that much ... the pair of them!
Those will definitely affect your use of the sword, even at half sword. Better get your spinach, Popeye!!! 
I'm very happy for you to have found equipment you like. Allan is a good guy too but ... man, those are heavy.
Good Luck!!!
Kel
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Kel, until the general standard of 16 gauge for fight use ( unless made from stainless or tempered, hate stainless and as a munitions maker tempering isn't in the immediate forcast) thats where most armour is comming in at. I'd love to be doing stuff like this in varying thickness's of material ( cuff in 18 gauge back of hand in 20, fingers in 20. The gauntlets we have in our collcetion all fall about in this range) but as has been said in many a thread here while those gauges are period they're not thick enough for todays use. With fight practice every other Tuesday and a weekend long event once a month where folks potentially beat the snot out of each other all weekend long ( a much higher frequency of use than during the period) the modern customer expects thier gear to last and meet the safety requirements of thier group, that's what we have to build to. The MacPherson mittens( no seperate fingers) used by New Riders of the Golden Age jousting company we maintained for years at the Sterling renfaire weigh the same as Jeans quote for the Wisby's, with a 14 gauge cuff becuase thats what they had to be for the use to which they were to be put. To enter the lists for the armour tournament at the AEMMA conference back in '04 here in Amsterdam ( for which we built two suits for Jeff Tsay and friend) the minimum material thickness was 16 gauge, its the standard we have to work to these days.
I'm taking care of some small tweek fitting for Shane's pair but as far as I know there has been no issue with weight. I will keep you appraised after he does harness demo at the ARMA International event in August.
Last edited by Allan Senefelder on Mon 18 Jun, 2007 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Kel Rekuta wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | M. Eversberg II wrote: | Very interesting stuff! How much do they weigh?
M. |
Just checked them on a food scale and they weigh around 3 pounds 4 ounces each: |
Good God. My plate mitten gauntlets for armoured combat don't weigh that much ... the pair of them!
Those will definitely affect your use of the sword, even at half sword. Better get your spinach, Popeye!!!
I'm very happy for you to have found equipment you like. Allan is a good guy too but ... man, those are heavy.
Good Luck!!!
Kel |
I believe you, but for some odd reason they just don't feel that heavy when I have them on ? Maybe I weighted them wrong or my very old scale is misadjusted ? Or maybe NOT as a bathroom scale gave me a similar reading by stepping on with and without the gauntlets.
But I can see that much thinner heat treated plate gauntlets could come in at around a pound using a very light gauge steel.
Well, I can still do one rep strictly with a 50 pounds concentration curl with my elbow braced on the inside of my knee. ( need to practice a little more to get more than one rep ) The gauntlets feel really light just after doing the curl.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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To follow Allan's post it might be possible to make thinner and much lighter gauntlets for light sparring/trainning where only light fully controled blows are used and their purpose is to protect from very occasional heavy hits that would be more accidents than a regular occurence ?
This would depend a lot on the " culture " of a specific training group that avoids full speed/power sparring and only use these as light safety equipment.
The reinactment stuff needs to be able to take heavy blows weekly for years before having to be replaced, the period for war stull only neededs to protect you once or twice before being repaired or replaced I think and would be as light as possible so as to not slow down or tire too much: Survival of the warrior taking precedence to the survival of the equipment.
Well, as mentioned even thin steel will holdup to serious abuse if heat treated to a spring temper.
All the above taken into consideration I'm still happy with mine, but the option for lighter versions might be possible if their use is limited like I mentioned at the top.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa, guys! I regret my opinion upsets you. I'm not taking a swipe at either of you. I respect Allan's hard work and outstanding service to the numerous medievalist communities. I respect Jean's interest in these activities and his perseverance in collecting and training with his equipment. These gauntlets suit Jean's needs and taste beyond his satisfaction. Its all good.
Its just that after almost thirty years of playing in kit, I've got an opinion of how heavy, durable harness, especially arm and hand armour, affects movement. After inspecting thousands of SCA kits, dozens of historic artifacts and trying to help people kit up to play, I've seen enough to qualify as experienced with medieval reproduction harness of various design. Even if Jean is kitting up to play rebated steel, that is a lot of weight to put on the hands. It will take some getting used to. For unarmored play, its excessive, IMHO. YMMV and probably does. I'm okay with that. 
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Kel Rekuta wrote: | Whoa, guys! I regret my opinion upsets you. I'm not taking a swipe at either of you. I respect Allan's hard work and outstanding service to the numerous medievalist communities. I respect Jean's interest in these activities and his perseverance in collecting and training with his equipment. These gauntlets suit Jean's needs and taste beyond his satisfaction. Its all good.
Its just that after almost thirty years of playing in kit, I've got an opinion of how heavy, durable harness, especially arm and hand armour, affects movement. After inspecting thousands of SCA kits, dozens of historic artifacts and trying to help people kit up to play, I've seen enough to qualify as experienced with medieval reproduction harness of various design. Even if Jean is kitting up to play rebated steel, that is a lot of weight to put on the hands. It will take some getting used to. For unarmored play, its excessive, IMHO. YMMV and probably does. I'm okay with that. |
Kel: Don't read anything between the lines, there wasn't anything there. I was just taking what you mentioned as very credible and sort of just discussing the concepts of what would be ideal under different circumstances. I took your comments as just honest opinion and as useful information to process: If anything sounded grumpy in my replies it wasn't their intent, so everything is 100% O.K. with your comments and I appreciated the discussion as a learning experience.
Just one of those cases were written communication doesn't communicate the " tone " of the conversation well and I always enjoy looking at the plus and minuses of things. ( Oh, and sometimes I overthink stuff and like to split hairs as well as play devil's advocate. ).
Oh, and if my life depended on it I would take the weight of the gauntlets into consideration as well as take very seriously your input.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Kel, what Jean said. I appologize if thats the impression that came out the post it was not what was intended. Simplely a general " nature of the beast" statement using your post as a jumping off point. I hope no offense was taken.
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