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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Happy That are really a sharp beauty, hopefully i can save money for one of them before they run out of limits.
The fuller looks deep, is it a one side fuller on the blade?
a picture of the backside of the hilt would be nice to. Wink

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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W. R. Reynolds




Location: Ramona, CA
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now to scrape up enough to get one.

What is the earliest one could expect to be able to document such a weapon. I do late 15th century around 1470.

Bill

"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom wrote:
Happy That are really a sharp beauty, hopefully i can save money for one of them before they run out of limits.
The fuller looks deep, is it a one side fuller on the blade?
a picture of the backside of the hilt would be nice to. Wink


Here you go, Patrik!



Remember, this is available in right or left hand configuration.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Martin Forrester




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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. R, Reynolds, this is my problem too, i am told the woodcut on Albion's website is early 16th, but I cannot get around the Germanness of messers. I need English pictorial evidence of a hand & half Falchion, and so far I haven't found any...
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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Brent Rattan




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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin, there is a Tudor period Flemish hand and a half saber in the Tower of London adjacent to the armor of Henry VIII. The saber has a Tudor rose etched onto it and the implication I took was that it was possibly used or owned by Henry.

Follow the below link to a post (and pics) I put up some time ago regarding said piece (which is one of my all time favorites)

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1523&highlight=

As for this Knecht, my oh my, I can't wait to get mine.

D B
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, it seems to me Albion is getting closer to ... maybe ... creating a " saber " ... ? Take that
honker of a blade, guys, choppy choppy chop down that long handle, take a look at some basic
saber grip / hilt designs and awaaaaaaay you go ...

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
Well, it seems to me Albion is getting closer to ... maybe ... creating a " saber " ... ? Take that
honker of a blade, guys, choppy choppy chop down that long handle, take a look at some basic
saber grip / hilt designs and awaaaaaaay you go ...



...We share a dream.
Let me just say that ;-)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll second Peter's advice about studying artwork. Check Dürer and Cranach (Elder and Younger) in particular. Depictions of the martyrdom of saint Barbara often depict a messer or falchion, showing the scabbard in detail. Cranach's (1510--see below) is most famous, but I've seen better in terms of representing the scabbard/suspension. Most messer/hanger illustrations I've seen are less detailed but show the systems Peter described. The second image below is typical of what I've seen in other illustrations from the late 15th-early 16th c. (L. Cranach the Younger, 1544).

If you want to make a suspension, you could use a dog leash as the raw material. Notice how narrow suspensions are in this period. Seems counterintuitive, but you'll see it in use with all kinds of swords, big and small alike.



 Attachment: 81.39 KB
scabbard.jpg


 Attachment: 68.91 KB
messerscabbard.jpg



Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 30 May, 2007 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple more (the photo of the baldric-type suspension shows one of Peter's falchions, IIRC):


 Attachment: 66.03 KB
download-2.jpeg


 Attachment: 81.03 KB
scabb.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A closer view of that wonderful scabbard system somebody made for his PJ messer, then I'll stop hijacking this thread with discussions of messer scabbards:


 Attachment: 55.41 KB
suspens.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
A closer view of that wonderful scabbard system somebody made for his PJ messer, then I'll stop hijacking this thread with discussions of messer scabbards:


Sean,

I really do not think this is hijacking. On the contrary: thank you for posting period art work!
I think that is a valuable input to the discussion.

Keep it up, please!
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Michael Ahrens




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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: a messer scabbard         Reply with quote

i think i will answer this scabbard question. i will just call tomorrow and say, Mike add a Campaign line scabbard to my order.


Mike



Peter Johnsson wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
A closer view of that wonderful scabbard system somebody made for his PJ messer, then I'll stop hijacking this thread with discussions of messer scabbards:


Sean,

I really do not think this is hijacking. On the contrary: thank you for posting period art work!
I think that is a valuable input to the discussion.

Keep it up, please!

Mike Ahrens
http://www.selohaar.org/

Staten Island German Martial Arts (S.I.G.M.A.)
http://www.sigmanewyork.webs.com/

Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Cantius Garand, Reformed (Gas Port)
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 8:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howard Waddell wrote:
Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom wrote:
Happy That are really a sharp beauty, hopefully i can save money for one of them before they run out of limits.
The fuller looks deep, is it a one side fuller on the blade?
a picture of the backside of the hilt would be nice to. Wink


Here you go, Patrik!

Remember, this is available in right or left hand configuration.

Best,

Howy

OH Boy Man!!
Now i have a really strange smile Big Grin
Tusen Tack Howy.

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some messer and falchion images from Central European artwork 1400 - 1500. I hope Imareal server will show the images, otherwise I will remove the post. Sorry for this photo rich post, I know it's really unfair for bandwidth challenged. Happy

So, here they are. Some of them are in scabbards, other not. Most are single handed, but there are some two handed variants.

Oh, and the first one is my photo from France, Colmar, mid 15. century. Enjoy the photos, and sorry for this off topic (maybe it would be better in it's own topic?)







--------------







Kreuzigung Christi, 1469 ; 1480 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Schottenstift

-----------



Judaskuss;Gefangennahme Christi, 1465 ; 1475 ; Wartberg an der Krems ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Pfarrkirche

-------------



Hl. Martin teilt seinen Mantel, 1435 ; 1445 ; Salzburg ; Österreich ; Salzburg ; Museum Carolino Augusteum ; IN 173\32

------------



Ermordung des Hl. Thomas Becket, 1460 ; 1465 ; Graz ; Österreich ; Steiermark ; Landesmuseum Joanneum ; IN 326

-----------



Gefangennahme des Hl. Oswald, 1470 ; 1475 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Galerie ; IN 4948

-----------



Martyrium des Hl. Sigismund und seiner Familie, 1480 ; 1490 ; Innsbruck ; Österreich ; Tirol ; Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum ; IN 1950

-----------



Bethlehemitischer Kindermord, 1475 ; 1485 ; Salzburg-Morzg ; Österreich ; Salzburg ; Pfarrkirche

------------



Hl. Georg vor dem Richter, 1460 ; 1470 ; Gerlamoos ; Österreich ; Kärnten ; Filialkirche St. Georg


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Continued:



Enthauptung des Hl. Georg, 1460 ; 1470 ; Gerlamoos ; Österreich ; Kärnten ; Filialkirche St. Georg

-----------



Abraham und Melchisedek, 1470 ; 1480 ; Thörl ; Österreich ; Kärnten ; Pfarrkirche

----------



Gefangennahme Christi, 1470 ; 1480 ; Thörl ; Österreich ; Kärnten ; Pfarrkirche

-----------



Kreuzigung Christi, 1475 ; 1485 ; Klerant ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Filialkirche St. Nikolaus

------------



Hl. Barbara, 1470 ; 1480 ; Pukanec ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche

------------


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I might be mistaken, but didn't the original concept include fullered steel grip panels running from the grip cap to the guard?

Brian M
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B. Stark
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian M wrote:
I might be mistaken, but didn't the original concept include fullered steel grip panels running from the grip cap to the guard?

Brian M


Can you not see the grip fuller in the above picture? It is exactly as you describe.

"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?

Patrick Henry
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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian M wrote:
I might be mistaken, but didn't the original concept include fullered steel grip panels running from the grip cap to the guard?

Brian M


Hi Brian!

This is the original concept art (now found on http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm ):



It may have looked like fullered steel grip panels, but it was always intended to be fullered wood scales on each side of the grip - ground to match the fuller of the pommel and guard.

Sorry for the confusion!

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
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http://filmswords.com
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the art, Blaz! That first image is the most detailed illustration of a messer scabbard I've seen anywhere. Wonderful stuff!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Blaz!

This puts the Knecht very well in perspecitve. The artwork shows much that can be food for thought and inspiration.
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