Cinquedeas: What's out there? -- myArmoury.com

David Donovan · Posted: Fri 11 May, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: Cinquedeas: What's out there?

I've dug around the forums and through the albums looking at various antique and reproduction cinquedeas (cinquedee?), but I don't think I've ever seen a topic specifically dedicated to them.

I actually picked up an MRL "15th Century Cinquedea" off of ebay a couple of years ago for fairly cheap (due to some problems with the fit of the hilt, as well a noticeably off-center tang!). Despite being a less than ideal introduction to the cinquedea, it nevertheless built up my interest in the type (plus, I think it's a good candidate for trying out some of those antiquing techniques - I'll post the results if I get around to it).

I've been looking around to see what else is out there in terms of reproduction cinquedeas. I've seen MRL's more recent "Classic Cinquedea" which looks like a bit of an improvement over the one I've got, but I'm thinking I might move up a step.

I'm especially looking at Lutel's offering at the moment, but I thought I'd ask about any other makers or examples of custom jobs anyone may have had done. I'm particularly curious about any makers who offer a dagger-sized cinquedea, since I've really only seen sword-length reproductions.

Randall Moffett · Posted: Fri 11 May, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject:

The Royal armoury has a good number of them,mst in storage.

I think they lookcooland have such a interesting balance to them. There is speculation they originlly started out as heafty short swords capable of major cutting but sounds like a possible myth.

I aksed an italian friend regarding the name and he said it does sound related to five fingers thoug (anyone familair with latin can kindof see it).

RPM

Roger Hooper · Posted: Sat 12 May, 2007 6:42 am Post subject:

Del Tin makes a Cinquedea - DT6151 - http://www.deltin.net/6151.htm
They also make a dagger, DT2165, that has the characteristics of that type - http://www.deltin.net/2165.htm

David Donovan · Posted: Sat 12 May, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject:

I thought I might add this link I found to a cinquedea waster by Raven Studios, I don't think I've seen anyone else who offers them. I also remember seeing some information a year or two ago about a cinquedea training seminar at Gallowglass academy... if they ever offer it again, I've got a friend in the area who I could go visit as an excuse to head up that way.

Craig Peters · Posted: Sat 12 May, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject:

David Donovan · Posted: Sat 12 May, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, I've been meaning to check around my area to see if there are any local organizations who do any Medieval/Renaissance martial arts, since I'm about to finish school and will finally have time to pursue something (or so I think, anyway).

One question for everyone about cinquedea tips: a lot of the examples I've seen are pretty pointy, but I've also seen a number with what's been described as an "ogive" or "spatulate" rounded tip. I actually think it's a neat shape, and while I'd imagine it would do nasty things to an unarmored target, it seems like it would run into problems against anyone wearing some sort of light armor or even heavy cloth. It just seems kind of odd for what I've usually seen described as primarily (though as Craig mentioned, not exclusively) a thrusting sword. Of course, if it was primarily a civilian weapon to be used against other civilians, I guess it might not have been an issue...

EDIT: Thanks for the links to the Del Tins, Roger, I'd seen an earlier model but hadn't seen the newer one. I also just found a Deepeeka Cinquedea, goes for $96 at www.by-the-sword.com. Might be good for a costume piece, if anyone is ever looking for the budget option. I'll keep hunting around, maybe get a solid list of what's available and post it back at the top of the thread.

Michael S. Rivet · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2007 5:15 am Post subject:

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2007 10:08 am Post subject:

I mean that they did not start out as a short sword. I figure they were swords shortened intended more for a civilian environment and made smaller to be excluded in the normal sword limitations in towns and cities not that they were not heavy cleaving weapons. Most cities create weapon regulations that people cannot walk around town with swords. I assume each town had its own legal definition of what length qualified as a sword, likely very similar to each other and then this was born, the answer to the problem. A sword capable of cutting but legal inside towns. I have been told on a number of occasions that this sword was a continuation of heavy short sword like the gladius and I do not see it personally. I think legal urban codes are the case at least in italy where these were popular.

I have no doubt that Oakeshott is right that a relation exists but makes more sense to me it started large and got small as explained above.

RPM

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2007 10:45 am Post subject:

I scanned this picture from an old book a while back. I think the book was "Arms and Armour" by Aldo Cimarelli.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...eas_AC.jpg

Craig Peters · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject:

If you haven't already got it, I would recommend picking up Jason Vail's book on medieval and renaissance dagger combat. It has a lot of different techniques interpreted from various manuals, and would work quite well for cinquedea, keeping in mind of course that like a gladius, the cinquedea would be used for cutting. I would think that a mixture of dagger fighting and arming sword fighting is about the best approximation we have at the moment for the cinquedea. My guess is that the techniques historically may have been more closely related to those of arming swords, but on the other hand, we know of rondel daggers with immensely long blades too, so who can say for sure.

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=158160517X

Bruno Giordan · Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 11:52 am Post subject:

Allen Reed · Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject:

David Donovan · Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the information, both Craig and Allen: I think I will try to order a copy of the book and try to contact Scott Wilson some time. Lots of good information showing up in this thread!

Here's what I've turned up so far with regards to available reproductions, in no particular order:
Lutel Cinquedea
Del Tin 6151 Cinquedea
MRL Classic Cinquedea
MRL 15th Century Cinquedea (discontinued, still available from some dealers)
Deepeeka Venetian Cinquedea
Toledo Cinquedea

Wasters:
Raven Studios Cinquedea Waster

And a few others which are decidedly cinquedea-like:
Del Tin 2165 Dagger
MRL Anelace
MRL Renaissance Short Sword

And this one isn't actually available for purchase, but I thought it was interesting and worth mentioning:
Kevin Harvey Damascus Cinquedea

Turned up a bit more than I expected, although mostly lower price range so far. I'll look a bit more, but I think I've found pretty much everything google has to offer... I guess I'll have to start looking through maker's sites one-by-one.

I also picked up some supplies for polishing/antiquing today, so I hope to get started on my "antiqued MRL cinquedea project" soon. I'm actually going to be traveling for a couple of weeks, but I'll try to get on it in early June and post some pictures of the results. Hopefully I won't botch it too badly. Confused

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject:

Here's a nice photo for purposes of comparing originals to reproductions (nice view of a scabbard, as well):

David Donovan · Posted: Sun 20 May, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:

I got some of the antiquing done early, might do a little more work on it when I get back from my trip (I leave tomorrow).

The blade was done with a couple of treatments of vinegar and salt water, and one last treatment of salt water only. The finish on the blade actually takes on an almost dark gold appearance with the light at the right angle.

I tried ammonia fuming on the brass, but got kind of mixed results. The scabbard parts seemed to respond better, if somewhat irregularly, whereas the guard and pommel didn't react as much. My biggest problem has been cleaning some of the more stubborn blue residue off, due to the twists and turns of the parts. I might clean it up and give it another round or two of fuming. I still need to antique the bone grip--I saw another topic which mentioned soaking bone in tea to darken it, so I think I'll give that a try.

Morgan Butler · Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: cinquedea

I just got the MRL Anelace, I'm fairly pleased with it, it definately has the cinquediea feel to it. I like to work it with a small steel punch shield that I have. It reminds me of those 17 to 18 inch long gladiator sword/knives. I'll put some pictures of it up under "the last sword you bought" catagory.

David Donovan · Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

I as well just found an anelace waiting on my doorstep after returning from my trip, and find it a nice little sword/giant dagger (especially for the marked down price that it's currently selling for). Does anyone know more about the "anelace"? From what I've looked up, the word is of Middle English origin, and appears in the Alliterative Morte Arthure. ("But Arthur with an anlace egerly smites...") MRL describes it as a "comtemporary of the cinquedea," but the precise relationship seems unclear. Is it an English weapon influenced by Italian fashion? Or is it a case of "convergent evolution" in the quest for a dagger-sword hybrid?

Martin Forrester · Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 9:20 am Post subject:

Arma bohemia do a rather pretty one (at least pretty for such a thuggish weapon)
http://www.armabohemia.cz/Novestr/daggersA.htm

Hugh Fuller · Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject:

Michael "Tinker" Pearce has an absolutely gorgeous one for sale for $1,175. Expensive, I suppose, but take a look. If that sort of sword turns you on, this one will. Scroll to the second entry.
http://www.tinkerswords.com/Page%203.html