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Doug B.




Location: Washington DC
Joined: 25 Feb 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Practice Cutting Patterns         Reply with quote

Hello all,

I recently saw a poster that had 4 practice cutting patterns. You read the patterns from outside to inside and practiced them in order of 1,2,3,4. The below image IS NOT ACCURATE but this is an example of what it looked like. I cannot recall the name of this pattern, or the person who created it, but it would be a great training tool to have. Does anyone know this? Or any other way to find good practice patterns?

1.........|.........2
..2.......|.......3
....4.....|.....1
......3...|...4
--------------------
......1...|...2
.....2....|.....3
...1......|.......4
4.........|.........3
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Doug,
The pattern is from Joachim Meyer's fencing treatise of the 16th century.

http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/manua...rd_28r.jpg

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i dont understand the meaning of this. WTF?!
i suppose you fix this poster an a wall, stand before it and cut in certain directions, suggested by the poster.

a) if you start left above, you can cut along 1,2,3,4 to the center. but moving right you start in the middle, sweeping upwards to 2, passing 3 and cutting down again ?

b) the before doesnt seem practical, so if (what i suppose) you always cut to the center, whats the reason behind the numbers ?

could anyone enlighten me ?
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
i dont understand the meaning of this. WTF?!
i suppose you fix this poster an a wall, stand before it and cut in certain directions, suggested by the poster.

a) if you start left above, you can cut along 1,2,3,4 to the center. but moving right you start in the middle, sweeping upwards to 2, passing 3 and cutting down again ?

b) the before doesnt seem practical, so if (what i suppose) you always cut to the center, whats the reason behind the numbers ?

could anyone enlighten me ?


The easiest thing to do is to read Joachim Meyer's treatise. That isn't meant to be a sarcastic answer: It's just the truth. Happy

But the basic idea:

Start with cuts using the long edge, and begin on the outside numbers. Cut diagonally down from the right (1), then up from the left (2), then up from the right (3), then down from the left (4). You've completed the first segment. The second segment is for the numbers that below the first segment: Cut diagonally up from the right (1), then down from the left (2), etc, etc. Then you do the same patterns with the short edge, then you can make the downward strikes long edge while the upward strikes are short edge, and then vice versa, etc. You can do them all with passing steps, or with gathering steps, or any number of footwork patterns depending on what you are drilling at the moment.

Also, you can do these where you perform full cuts (i.e. don't stop in the middle) or you can do them as half-cuts (i.e. stop in the middle). Both teach you different forms of preparations.

These are not the only cutting patterns, but they are good ones for people to start learning to move with the sword.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ah, thats it, thank you.
but honestly
Quote:
The easiest thing to do is to read Joachim Meyer's treatise. That isn't meant to be a sarcastic answer: It's just the truth.

imho theres nothing easy about meyers treatise, not even for a native german speaker,
i could not even fully follow the preamble ( to the illustrious and highborn prince and lord johan casimir, palatine of the rhine...) Laughing Out Loud
all full of endless long and clumsy sentences, weird collocations and expressions long gone...
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Doug B.




Location: Washington DC
Joined: 25 Feb 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you.

Edit: Bill, I just noticed you are the Director of Historical Swords at VAF. This is where I am taking classes! David showed us this pattern on Saturday! Small world.
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried,

There's a transcription to modern German made by Alex Kiermayer and available at The Arts of Mars webshop of Colin Richards. It has just been published and apart from readable it's a very beautifully produced book.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
imho theres nothing easy about meyers treatise, not even for a native german speaker,


Ha! You won't get much of an argument from me. Happy His long run-on sentences are a little bit of a headache for the modern reader. That said, he was certainly one of the more specific of the Liechtenauer masters, and though he crammed a lot of words into his sentences, there's quite a lot of important material in his treatise.

Quote:
i could not even fully follow the preamble ( to the illustrious and highborn prince and lord johan casimir, palatine of the rhine...) Laughing Out Loud


Actually, almost all of the fencing treatises from his time begin like that, with that kind of verbosity. These fencing masters had to appeal to their benefactors, after all, or they wouldn't get published. Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Bill Grandy
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Location: Alexandria, VA USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug B. wrote:
Edit: Bill, I just noticed you are the Director of Historical Swords at VAF. This is where I am taking classes! David showed us this pattern on Saturday! Small world.


Heh, I saw you were local, and I was wondering if maybe you came to VAF and had seen the cutting diagram there. Happy Glad you're learning!

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,423

PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
i dont understand the meaning of this. WTF?!
i suppose you fix this poster an a wall, stand before it and cut in certain directions, suggested by the poster.

a) if you start left above, you can cut along 1,2,3,4 to the center. but moving right you start in the middle, sweeping upwards to 2, passing 3 and cutting down again ?

b) the before doesnt seem practical, so if (what i suppose) you always cut to the center, whats the reason behind the numbers ?

could anyone enlighten me ?


The easiest thing to do is to read Joachim Meyer's treatise. That isn't meant to be a sarcastic answer: It's just the truth. Happy

But the basic idea:

Start with cuts using the long edge, and begin on the outside numbers. Cut diagonally down from the right (1), then up from the left (2), then up from the right (3), then down from the left (4). You've completed the first segment. The second segment is for the numbers that below the first segment: Cut diagonally up from the right (1), then down from the left (2), etc, etc. Then you do the same patterns with the short edge, then you can make the downward strikes long edge while the upward strikes are short edge, and then vice versa, etc. You can do them all with passing steps, or with gathering steps, or any number of footwork patterns depending on what you are drilling at the moment.

Also, you can do these where you perform full cuts (i.e. don't stop in the middle) or you can do them as half-cuts (i.e. stop in the middle). Both teach you different forms of preparations.

These are not the only cutting patterns, but they are good ones for people to start learning to move with the sword.


although i guess, unsurprisingly, that requires knowledge of the footwork required. for example i have no idea how your stance is supposed to change as you make a cut, and as well, howyour body, arms etc move as one makes a particular cut.
i.e do you step back during rising cuts and forward during downward cuts? generally speaking

(ive always made that particular assumption, that the stance in longsword or messer is similar to the 'forward stance' used in karate i.e left foot forward, right foot back, to strike downward requires you to step forward with your right foot while making the cut. ) then again ive never been properly taught to use ANY sword, aside from viking style sword and shield. and even that is semi imformal.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
although i guess, unsurprisingly, that requires knowledge of the footwork required.


It certainly does. Happy There's only so much detail we're going to hit on in a forum post. But these cutting patterns are not meant to be learned in isolation. They are drills to practice in addition to the entire corpus of the martial system, just as a boxer cannot learn purely from a punching bag, and yet it is still a worthwhile practice.

Quote:
(ive always made that particular assumption, that the stance in longsword or messer is similar to the 'forward stance' used in karate i.e left foot forward, right foot back, to strike downward requires you to step forward with your right foot while making the cut. ) then again ive never been properly taught to use ANY sword, aside from viking style sword and shield. and even that is semi imformal.


Much like in any martial art, it depends on a lot of factors. Styles that developed during the age of plate tend to have more upright postures with the feet closer together (even when not wearing armor), whereas systems that developed more towards the 16th and 17th centuries tend to have a wider stance. But even that is a big generalization.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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