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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: 11th century or not?         Reply with quote

someone made the claim that this is a 11th century helmet
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=89&u=14729215
anyone who can confirm or reject?

(read more here)
http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/histor...ry-t83.htm

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Connor Ruebusch




Location: Cincinnati
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It does appear that the fellow who made the claim in that forum page you cited states that they are replicas made by himself. So no, the chapel de fer seen there is not an 11th century helm, but I believe it is meant to be a replica of one.

Connor
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Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Obviously they are not original pieces and that is not the question. The question is, did the Chapel-de fer see use in the 11th century or did it only come about after?
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
Obviously they are not original pieces and that is not the question. The question is, did the Chapel-de fer see use in the 11th century or did it only come about after?


this is correct

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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

not 11th century. i would say late 12th thru 14th centurys
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, that looks like not very well executed variation of chapel de fer shown in "Techniques of medieval armour reproduction", and there it is presented as 14th century helmet so...
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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

no chance for a 11th century steel HAT then.
confound it.
oh well, thankyou for your time gentlemen.

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Connor Ruebusch




Location: Cincinnati
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I see. Sorry for misinterpreting. Yes, I would agree with the others here. I don't think it saw use until at least the 12th, century. On a related note, does anyone here know of an example of a kettle hat with nasal, and how early they showed up?

Connor
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the famous hummingbird kettle hat? Wink i think they are a 15th bird as it were. I don't have any pictures of the actual one on hand but do have some of a reconstruction.

http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...GP0758.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...GP0757.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...GP0754.jpg
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Kettle hat         Reply with quote

Hi

Without going to the 'library' if I recall correctly one of the ivory Isle of Lewis gaming pieces also has a piece in which a 'knight' is wearing a broad brimmed helm.

The pieces are dated to the 12th C.

best
Dave

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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Kettle hat         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
Hi

Without going to the 'library' if I recall correctly one of the ivory Isle of Lewis gaming pieces also has a piece in which a 'knight' is wearing a broad brimmed helm.

The pieces are dated to the 12th C.

best
Dave

Laughing Out Loud It sounds like the usual problem, here (Sweden) we dont say 12th Century,
we say 11 hundred "Talet" (engl, Number, math term), so when we say it some "folk and fä" thinking 1000-1099,
sure some other contrys say it like that to. Big Grin

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Patrik
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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 2:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

so when some people say 11th century they mean the century BEFORE it?

My group is, as our homepage says, "1135-1215


Historia Normannis is a 12th century reenactment group, focusing primarily on the events between the reign of Henry I and King John."

and I have searched high and low for ANY kettlehat within those years. but no.
oh well, guess I'll just have to find a funky looking norman helmet.
http://www.armurerie-du-vaucluse.com//boutiqu...-large.jpg like this maybe

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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Dale wrote:
so when some people say 11th century they mean the century BEFORE it?

No, they mean the 11th century.

As in:

1st century - years 1 - 100
2nd century - years 101 - 200
.
.
.
11th century - years 1001 - 1100
12th century - years 1101 - 1200
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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 3:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some people may be confused by the term~ "twelfth-hundreds" which means years 1200 - 1299. In many languages that's the way centuries are referred to (as in my own Finnish), but in English it works the way I said above in the previous message.
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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 4:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

englishmen and their language. they can be SO confusing sometimes Wink
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Dale wrote:
so when some people say 11th century they mean the century BEFORE it?

My group is, as our homepage says, "1135-1215


Historia Normannis is a 12th century reenactment group, focusing primarily on the events between the reign of Henry I and King John."

and I have searched high and low for ANY kettlehat within those years. but no.
oh well, guess I'll just have to find a funky looking norman helmet.
http://www.armurerie-du-vaucluse.com//boutiqu...-large.jpg like this maybe


that is a norman helmet, but not a northern one. that helmet can been seen in lower Europe during the 1100s i think it's most noted around Sicily area, not say battle of hastings area
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

if you say the 1920ies you mean 1920-29
but if you say "second decade" its 1910-19, because 1900-1909 is the first decade

so if you say 11th century its 1000-1099
but by the "eleven-hundreds" you mean the years 1100-1199


as for the chapel-de-fer, i`d rather suggest late 12th century
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Felix Dale




Location: wales (only studying here)
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

didnt some early kettle helms turn up during one of the crusades? (1st-3rd?)
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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
so if you say 11th century its 1000-1099

That's not entirely correct. Since there is no year 0, the first century starts from 1 and ends at 100. Therefore the 11th century also starts at 1001 and ends at 1100.
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Ron Reimer




Location: Australia
Joined: 16 Aug 2010

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 2:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a member of a group that re-enacts crusaders between 1150 -1250(primarily 3rd Crusade) and I use a similar Kettle Hat .You can find Kettles in the illuminations,throughout this period,ie theMaciejowski Bible and as has been mentioned on the Isle of Lewis chessmen.So it is period correct for you.And I think they are an entirely practical style for hot climes such as the Holy Land (and in my case Australia).
Ron
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