Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Seeking photos of the Black Prince's helm Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Seeking photos of the Black Prince's helm         Reply with quote

Many of us are familiar with the great helm of Edward of Woodstock, known as the Black Prince. It's been discussed here before, including in this thread.

What I'd love to see, though, are any photos of the helm minus its crest. Howard Curtis published this sketch in his book 2,500 Years of European Helmets, but it's the only image I've seen of the helm without its crest. I'd love to see an actual photo of it sans crest if anyone has anything like that. Happy



 Attachment: 41.22 KB
bp helm.jpg


Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll try one more time on this request. Happy Anyone have any photos of this helm minus its crest?
Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Evidentally, Sir James Mann wrote a book titled The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince according to LibraryThing. I would assume the picture you want would be in this book, but I can't find any more information on it.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It may be worth $4.49 to find out! Happy

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.B000ITQ4DA.html
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've sent a quick email and PM to Todd Hawkins to see if the book does indeed contain pictures of the helm without adornment.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott and Jonathan,
Thanks! That's very helpful, actually. I may have to pick that book up.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just broke down and ordered the book. Happy

So much for self control. Laughing Out Loud

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
I just broke down and ordered the book. Happy So much for self control. Laughing Out Loud


I can relate!

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad and Scott,

I have three books based on the Black Prince (including The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince), and after re-checking all three, there are no pictures of his Great Helm without the crest on.

I've read in various articles that the top of the helm had the same conical top as the Pembridge Helm.

I've attached two pictures from of a custom remake of both helms by Valentine Armouries. His remake shows the helm without a crest. I don't know if he had an un-crested pictures to model from, or if he just went with assumption of how the lines would follow to the top of the helm, while taking into consideration the fact that it had to fit over the conical Basinet beneath.

You might want to send an e-mail to Robert at Valentine Armouries, and see if he has any pictures of the helm he used in production that doesn't include the crest.

Also; the book "The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince" is very well written by Sir James Mann, but only includes pictures of the re-created Achievements and not the originals. If you are looking for pictures of the original Achievements then I would recommend "The Black Prince" by David R. Cook, which can currently be purchased online at the Canterbury Cathedral gift shop.

I hope this helps.

Todd



 Attachment: 85.77 KB
blackprd.jpg


 Attachment: 42.33 KB
blackprc2.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some pics I was sent by a good buddy Happy . They're from the book "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." They confirm that unlike the Pembridge helm, the Black Prince's helm is made of three pieces: a conical skull piece and the front and back plates. The Pembridge helm is also of 3 pieces, but is put together differently. It has a crown plate riveted to a tapering cone, which is riveted to a less tapering cone.


 Attachment: 95.93 KB
BP helm - front.jpg
Front of the Black Prince's helm

 Attachment: 127.05 KB
BP helm - side.jpg
Side of the Black Prince's helm

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For comparison, here is the Pembridge helm.

A view from the front (mostly):




 Attachment: 60.87 KB
Pembridge-side.jpg
From Howard Curtis' 2,500 Years of European Helmets

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice! Happy

Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.

Chad, do you have any idea where a copy of "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." can be found?

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Nice! Happy

Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.

Chad, do you have any idea where a copy of "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." can be found?


I found several copies via my old friend Bookfinder.com. Happy I might pick one up someday.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Nice! Happy

Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.



Actually, there are some differences the more I look at it. Curtis misses the curve of the upper edge of the front piece entirely. I actually find that non-straight edge to be one of my favorite things about the helm. He also leaves out or simplifies the fleur-de-lis shape on the tongue that connects front plate to crown plate and divides the occularium up.





But it's closer than I thought it was, as I assumed (wrongly) that the upper crown was a separate piece riveted on like on the Pembridge helm. I love the Black Prince's helm and hope to have it replicated some day.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Actually, there are some differences the more I look at it. Curtis misses the curve of the upper edge of the front piece entirely. I actually find that non-straight edge to be one of my favorite things about the helm. He also leaves out or simplifies the fleur-de-lis shape on the tongue that connects front plate to crown plate and divides the occularium up.
True! A subtle, but important variance.
Quote:
But it's closer than I thought it was, as I assumed (wrongly) that the upper crown was a separate piece riveted on like on the Pembridge helm. I love the Black Prince's helm and hope to have it replicated some day.
I'd love to see an exact replica (outside of Canterbury Cathedral) highlighted in this forum.

Thanks for the heads up on Bookfinder.com, there's now one less copy available. Self-control be damned. Wink

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My copy of The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of His Achievements. Knights of the Garter, Past and Present arrived today from across the pond. Happy

Here's a full page scan of the helms for comparison.



 Attachment: 27.33 KB
SCAN4465_000.jpg


...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Seeking photos of the Black Prince's helm
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum