| Author |
Message |
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
 Posted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: Seeking photos of the Black Prince's helm |
 |
|
Many of us are familiar with the great helm of Edward of Woodstock, known as the Black Prince. It's been discussed here before, including in this thread.
What I'd love to see, though, are any photos of the helm minus its crest. Howard Curtis published this sketch in his book 2,500 Years of European Helmets, but it's the only image I've seen of the helm without its crest. I'd love to see an actual photo of it sans crest if anyone has anything like that. 
 Attachment: 41.22 KB
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
    |
 |
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'll try one more time on this request. Anyone have any photos of this helm minus its crest?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Evidentally, Sir James Mann wrote a book titled The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince according to LibraryThing. I would assume the picture you want would be in this book, but I can't find any more information on it.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jonathan Hopkins
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've sent a quick email and PM to Todd Hawkins to see if the book does indeed contain pictures of the helm without adornment.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Scott and Jonathan,
Thanks! That's very helpful, actually. I may have to pick that book up.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just broke down and ordered the book.
So much for self control. 
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
|
|
|
|
Todd Hawkins
|
| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Chad and Scott,
I have three books based on the Black Prince (including The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince), and after re-checking all three, there are no pictures of his Great Helm without the crest on.
I've read in various articles that the top of the helm had the same conical top as the Pembridge Helm.
I've attached two pictures from of a custom remake of both helms by Valentine Armouries. His remake shows the helm without a crest. I don't know if he had an un-crested pictures to model from, or if he just went with assumption of how the lines would follow to the top of the helm, while taking into consideration the fact that it had to fit over the conical Basinet beneath.
You might want to send an e-mail to Robert at Valentine Armouries, and see if he has any pictures of the helm he used in production that doesn't include the crest.
Also; the book "The Funeral Achievements of Edward the Black Prince" is very well written by Sir James Mann, but only includes pictures of the re-created Achievements and not the originals. If you are looking for pictures of the original Achievements then I would recommend "The Black Prince" by David R. Cook, which can currently be purchased online at the Canterbury Cathedral gift shop.
I hope this helps.
Todd
Attachment: 85.77 KB
Attachment: 42.33 KB
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here are some pics I was sent by a good buddy . They're from the book "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." They confirm that unlike the Pembridge helm, the Black Prince's helm is made of three pieces: a conical skull piece and the front and back plates. The Pembridge helm is also of 3 pieces, but is put together differently. It has a crown plate riveted to a tapering cone, which is riveted to a less tapering cone.
Attachment: 95.93 KB
Front of the Black Prince's helm
Attachment: 127.05 KB
Side of the Black Prince's helm
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For comparison, here is the Pembridge helm.
A view from the front (mostly):
Attachment: 60.87 KB
From Howard Curtis' 2,500 Years of European Helmets
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nice!
Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.
Chad, do you have any idea where a copy of "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." can be found?
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Scott Hrouda wrote: | Nice!
Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.
Chad, do you have any idea where a copy of "The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of his achievements. Knights of the garter, past and present." can be found? |
I found several copies via my old friend Bookfinder.com. I might pick one up someday.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Scott Hrouda wrote: | Nice!
Goes to show that the line drawing in Howard Curtis' book is very accurate.
|
Actually, there are some differences the more I look at it. Curtis misses the curve of the upper edge of the front piece entirely. I actually find that non-straight edge to be one of my favorite things about the helm. He also leaves out or simplifies the fleur-de-lis shape on the tongue that connects front plate to crown plate and divides the occularium up.
But it's closer than I thought it was, as I assumed (wrongly) that the upper crown was a separate piece riveted on like on the Pembridge helm. I love the Black Prince's helm and hope to have it replicated some day.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Actually, there are some differences the more I look at it. Curtis misses the curve of the upper edge of the front piece entirely. I actually find that non-straight edge to be one of my favorite things about the helm. He also leaves out or simplifies the fleur-de-lis shape on the tongue that connects front plate to crown plate and divides the occularium up. |
True! A subtle, but important variance.
| Quote: | | But it's closer than I thought it was, as I assumed (wrongly) that the upper crown was a separate piece riveted on like on the Pembridge helm. I love the Black Prince's helm and hope to have it replicated some day. |
I'd love to see an exact replica (outside of Canterbury Cathedral) highlighted in this forum.
Thanks for the heads up on Bookfinder.com, there's now one less copy available. Self-control be damned. 
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hrouda
|
| Posted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
My copy of The Times of Edward the Black Prince. Replicas of His Achievements. Knights of the Garter, Past and Present arrived today from across the pond.
Here's a full page scan of the helms for comparison.
Attachment: 27.33 KB
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic