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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Maille Question -- Flatened Riveted Links         Reply with quote

I was wondering if a historicly accurate suit of maille to any particular time period would be comprised of 100% flattened, riveted links, with or without sleves? I beleive the Norse had something like it, but only riveted the one connecting ring in the 4-1 pattern.

M.
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, if i get some of the details wrong feel free to correct me, but I believe that the 14th century was when maille commonly began to be completely riveted in Europe. Also, I'm not completely sure on when flattened links became popular, but wedge rivets began to be used in Germany in the late 12th and early 13th centuries. Generally flattened links went along with wedge rivets, so I'd assume that flattened links also began to be used in Germanic areas about the same time or a little later.
Hope this helps,
Dan
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'm trying to pick between a 13th or 14th century kit to collect first, and I'm wondering if it fits in either one.

To my understanding, most maille hauberks had long sleves that ended in mittens in the 13th century, but I'm more than absolutly sure there where exceptions to this.

M.
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Shawn Shaw




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:
Well, if i get some of the details wrong feel free to correct me, but I believe that the 14th century was when maille commonly began to be completely riveted in Europe. Also, I'm not completely sure on when flattened links became popular, but wedge rivets began to be used in Germany in the late 12th and early 13th centuries. Generally flattened links went along with wedge rivets, so I'd assume that flattened links also began to be used in Germanic areas about the same time or a little later.
Hope this helps,
Dan


Are you saying that before the 13th century, maille was partially or wholly butted construction? From my understanding, butted maille was never used historically for combat purposes.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shawn Shaw wrote:
Dan Dickinson wrote:
Well, if i get some of the details wrong feel free to correct me, but I believe that the 14th century was when maille commonly began to be completely riveted in Europe. Also, I'm not completely sure on when flattened links became popular, but wedge rivets began to be used in Germany in the late 12th and early 13th centuries. Generally flattened links went along with wedge rivets, so I'd assume that flattened links also began to be used in Germanic areas about the same time or a little later.
Hope this helps,
Dan


Are you saying that before the 13th century, maille was partially or wholly butted construction? From my understanding, butted maille was never used historically for combat purposes.


I think I remember hearing about butted maille finds in Ireland; though I could be wrong. The article says "celtic" but they could be talking about "Celts" as the Romans saw them, which IIRC was anywhere north of where the Latins where.

I'll try and find that article/chart. I belive it was on the Armour Archive.

M.
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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't recall hearing about butted mail existing historically, but I'm not exactly an expert either. My understanding is that it was all rivet construction, just that in some times/places you may find every other row being constructed from solid rings (stamped or cut from sheet metal or something).

Again, not an expert. Happy

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Shawn Henthorn




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, the butted mail wasn't used in the middle ages. When we speak of partialy rivited maille It means that every other row was rivited and the rows inbetween were solid rings.
edit: crud!!! Ed beat me Big Grin
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:
I don't recall hearing about butted mail existing historically, but I'm not exactly an expert either. My understanding is that it was all rivet construction, just that in some times/places you may find every other row being constructed from solid rings (stamped or cut from sheet metal or something).

Again, not an expert. Happy


Yeah, that's what I thought, where only the connecting ring was riveted (which yields every other row being a "washer"). I've never personally seen an all riveted construction, though the overall question I have is about the flattened links. I was wondering if it was in use during the 13th Century?

M.
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry if I caused confusion in my post, I was not implying that butted maille was used, but rather was assuming that the original poster was referring to mixed rows of riveted and solid (either welded or punched) rings (which was the predominate method before the 14th century) as the alternative to all riveted .
Sorry again for the confusion,
Dan
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So what happened in the 14th century? They reverted to all riveted?

My source has both flat and round rings at a good price, though I will have to de-zinc them (overnight in vinegar in a well vintelated area, I know what zinc can do to you) myself.

M.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This has been discussed several times on the forum already and can be found by using the search function.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...lat+maille answered all my questions.

Thanks anyways,
M.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a norse byrnie like you've mentioned alternating rows of solid rings and round rivetted rings would be the most accurate representation. All flat-riveted rings would be more accurate for a late 14th-into the 15th century interp.
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yup as patrick said. Happy

we all jumped on teh band wagon a few years ago when flat rings came out. but the more it has been researched, most groups before the 1300s need round riveted rings alternating with flat solid rings. and most of those need to be around 6mm ID

sigh, i dont hav ehte cash to buy yet another mail shirt Wink


one thing though, i havent found a round ring that i REALLY like. most round rings that are riveted look odd and i've heard the wearer usually has problems of being stuck periodically.


as to the butted mail issue. there have been a few pre viking- even pre roman finds that were classified as butted but were later found out to be rivetted. although i think there are a few iron age ceremonial helmets said to still have butted mail etc. but i'm not up on all of my current mail research. there has been a lot of good work done on this subject in the last 10 years. do a search for the mail research project etc
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
All flat-riveted rings would be more accurate for a late 14th-into the 15th century interp.


Josh Warren (who is a great guy, by the way) and I were discussing this last night. He showed me a couple of examples of alternating rivetted/solid ring hauberks from Eastern/Central Europe that are dated to the 14th century (I'd have to ask him the source again, though). Also round rings seem to be very common on Italian pieces. There are definately flat rings in use as well, but they are not the only variety. I am trying to figure out which variety would be more appropriate for an English or French knight circa 1350. Probably the flat rings, since I can get round ones cheaper. Cry

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maille is the most difficult period arms & armor item to obtain a reasonably authentic modern reproduction of. All production efforts come up quite short in my opinion when compared to the authenticity. We are able to obtain much more authentic reproduction of things like swords, shields, polearms etc., although authentic shields are also a problem.

I have accepted that I will not own a maille hauberk because of these authenticity conserns. The enormous ammount of manual labor needed to make an authentic item makes it impractical unless one is willing to spend +$25,000. I love my hobby but that's just a bit over-budget. Wink

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
All flat-riveted rings would be more accurate for a late 14th-into the 15th century interp.


Josh Warren (who is a great guy, by the way) and I were discussing this last night. He showed me a couple of examples of alternating rivetted/solid ring hauberks from Eastern/Central Europe that are dated to the 14th century (I'd have to ask him the source again, though). Also round rings seem to be very common on Italian pieces. There are definately flat rings in use as well, but they are not the only variety. I am trying to figure out which variety would be more appropriate for an English or French knight circa 1350. Probably the flat rings, since I can get round ones cheaper. Cry

-Grey


The biggest problem with mail is, like most other things in this field of study, there are no hard and fast absolutes. There were many types and qualities of mail in use over broad ranges of periods and cultures. There's also the problem of examining mail that's anywhere from 10000-500 years old and attempting to form a hard and fast conclusion from mail that's undergone centuries of wear. The best we can do is make broad statements in regards to ring type and construction and their periods of use. Erik Schmid is the only person I know who's done enough hands-on study of original mail for me to consider him a real authority on the subject.

I'm happy with the way my personal hauberk turned out but I was also aware of the accuracy issues with the materials I used. Someday I intend to make another one with appropriate 11th century construction but I'm still resting up from the first one. Big Grin
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maille is one of the least developed part of the living history attire, but there are some that get quite close. All flat-link rivited maille from late 15th century has some very accurate repros made by Erik D Schmidt.

15th century maille, and as you can see some repros comes quite close to this;


Repro sold by GDFB for example, isnt that far off;


And buttet maille where used sometimes in historical settings, ive seen some Turkish/Ottoman maille shirts that have like 3mm links all butted.

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Late 15th c. is one thing 11th-12th c. is another. GDFB and Forth Armoury do not seem to offer sufficient reproduction of these eras.

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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No they do not, since 12th cen maille is harder to get right i think, less originals to go from, more different styles. Some early medieval mailleshirts include three differenct styles of links, and that will ofcourse be harder to reproduce accuratly. If you want well made maille from the 12th cen you better turn to Erik Schmidt, he will know.
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plebeque militia.
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