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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Theoretical sword: is it historical?         Reply with quote

Here's something I've been thinking about. If there is one sword I've really wanted for a quite a while now, it would be a Swiss saber with a katzbalger-style guard.

Now, from what I can understand, a Swiss saber is basically a type of hybrid between saber and longsword/bastard sword. I'm also aware that there were in fact bastard swords with katzbalger guards. Finally, unless I'm mistaken, these two types of swords were popular at about the same time period in about the same part of the world.

With this in mind, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to suggest such a hybrid weapon might really have existed. Just, I've never actually seen one. So now I wonder; how historically plausible is it?

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Anders...

This is the closest I have seen.

It's from the Veilingopbrengsten Auctions awhile back.

Total Length 101 cm
Dated as about 1450

ks



 Attachment: 97.62 KB
SWIS.Dome.L101.1450.VBA...jpg


Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Doug Lester




Location: Decatur, IL
Joined: 12 Dec 2007

Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lack of a proof of a presense in not a proof of an absense so I'd have to say that theoretically it is possible. One thing to remember is that the katzsbalger was a weapon of the Landsknaught whereas the Swiss saber would have been with the Swiss pikemen. The two groups detested each other and often would refuse to give quarter to the other. There might have been a little reluctance to use elements of the opposing force's weaponry. That said, the "Swiss" saber was also used in southern Germany, so I guess that anything is possible.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as twohanded Katzsbalger of bastard sword proportions here is a custom one made by A & A:
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/custom914.html

As far as adding a Swiss sabre style hand guard I guess it would be possible.

Now, if historical accuracy, in that one can prove that at least one of these is documented, is not an absolute essential thing for you, you could just decide to have one custom made a a semi-fantasy piece ?

If for your own satisfaction and not for a re-enactment or living history purpose one can indulge oneself with original design concepts. Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Hi Anders...

This is the closest I have seen.

It's from the Veilingopbrengsten Auctions awhile back.

Total Length 101 cm
Dated as about 1450

ks


Interesting, though it looks more like a katzbalger/early baskethilt hybrid.

Doug Lester wrote:
Lack of a proof of a presense in not a proof of an absense so I'd have to say that theoretically it is possible. One thing to remember is that the katzsbalger was a weapon of the Landsknaught whereas the Swiss saber would have been with the Swiss pikemen. The two groups detested each other and often would refuse to give quarter to the other. There might have been a little reluctance to use elements of the opposing force's weaponry. That said, the "Swiss" saber was also used in southern Germany, so I guess that anything is possible.


Very interesting; I didn't know they were enemies. That would certainly explain the general lack of katzbalger sabers. Wink

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
As far as twohanded Katzsbalger of bastard sword proportions here is a custom one made by A & A:
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/custom914.html

As far as adding a Swiss sabre style hand guard I guess it would be possible.


I think you have it the wrong way around now. I'm thinking about a Swiss saber with a katzbalger guard, not a katzbalger bastard sword with a Swiss saber guard.

As for the A&A sword, it's not bad, though visually I prefer the ones Lutel makes. Especially the 15015 model. *drool*

Quote:
Now, if historical accuracy, in that one can prove that at least one of these is documented, is not an absolute essential thing for you, you could just decide to have one custom made a a semi-fantasy piece ?

If for your own satisfaction and not for a re-enactment or living history purpose one can indulge oneself with original design concepts. Wink


Oh, I couldn't care less about historical accuracy. If anything, I mostly consider historical weapons to be merely good guidelines when creating modern swords. So, that's not concern at all.

This is more a matter of satisfying my curiosity, really. Happy

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Werner Stiegler





Joined: 27 Feb 2007

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:

Very interesting; I didn't know they were enemies. That would certainly explain the general lack of katzbalger sabers. Wink
There's one example of a großes Messer with a Katzbalger guard and hilt from Sweden.

Quote:
Lack of a proof of a presense in not a proof of an absense so I'd have to say that theoretically it is possible. One thing to remember is that the katzsbalger was a weapon of the Landsknaught whereas the Swiss saber would have been with the Swiss pikemen. The two groups detested each other and often would refuse to give quarter to the other. There might have been a little reluctance to use elements of the opposing force's weaponry. That said, the "Swiss" saber was also used in southern Germany, so I guess that anything is possible.
I would not give too much on that. The Landsknecht used pikes without any qualms after all. And a bit of animosity is understandable, as parts of the recruitment was doned in the regions around Lake Constanze - Swabia, Vorarlberg and Tyrol. All of these provinces had a history of conflict with the swiss.
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Werner Stiegler wrote:
Anders Backlund wrote:

Very interesting; I didn't know they were enemies. That would certainly explain the general lack of katzbalger sabers. Wink
There's one example of a großes Messer with a Katzbalger guard and hilt from Sweden.


Now, that one I'd really like to see. Surprised

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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