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Jim Adelsen
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'm curious about stitching the rim on. I have seen it on quite a few shields, but have always thought it would be sort of weak for a rim. If the rim takes a good cut wouldn't all the stitching come loose?
www.viking-shield.com
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Nathan Spence
Location: Virginia Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I was thinking the same thing as far as stitching is concerned. But someone here mentioned that it was a bit more documented and correct.
Spence
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James H.
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| Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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New question, same old story. I was going to use leather to cover my shield but for just one layer it's about 70 bucks. I do live by a cow pasture and could take my gun and get the leather the old fashion way; but, I think that may be a little extreme just for this one project. So, instead, I went to the local Lowe's and bought a large painter drop clothe of heavy canvas with extra grueso to use instead. I wanted to ask if when covering the shield, do I also wrap around over the edge of the shield or just save the edge for the rawhide instead?
Also I might be willing to buy one or two of the layers of leather to finish it with, so that the top layers were leather and the ones under were canvas. I wanted to know if that might make the canvas rot?
And Jim Adelsen made a good point about the edging being sewn on that I had fail to think of.
Thank you a lot. You have all been great help.
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James H.
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| Posted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Just learned something new that may be important, I am too far into this one to bother with it now but it is something I will keep in mind for next time. Let me know if this sounds right.
Doing research I have learned that it is better to lay the plywood together so the grain of the wood is perpendicular of one another when gluing them together. This is suppose to add to the strength of the shield and supposedly more accurate historically. (This is from a single source and not a wide range of research)
It makes sense now that I think of it. I did not do it on the one I am presently working on because I thought it might cause the wood to crack when I applied pressure to it.
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I did not do it on the one I am presently working on because I thought it might cause the wood to crack when I applied pressure to it. |
Unless you are dishing your shield in a press or using your shield as as step ladder to get over a wall, this doesn't really apply to flat sound shields.
The idea of drilling little holes and stitching through the rim is new to me. none of the extant shields that I've seen had any rim at all though, so I don't know where the idea comes from.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Peter Beatson's article, "The 'Viking Shield' from Archaeology" may help answer some of the questions raised in this thread:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/shield.html
For my own early-medieval center-grip round shield, I saddle-stitched a rawhide rim. That is, I stitched hole-to-hole, not over the edge; and I used two threads that criss-cross through the holes, so that the threads bind each section on both sides: thread-rawhide-wood-rawhide-thread. Other people whom I know have used steel tacks. Both seem to have some archaeological support.
I hope that this proves helpful.
Mark Millman
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John I B Dugaw
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew D G wrote: | Hello again!
Has anyone ever made a scottish targe? I've been looking to make one for the last few weeks but I'm a little stuck on how to make the handgrip.
Any pics, drawings, and suggestions would be very helpful |
Matthew,
I have been trolling this website for over a year-and-a-half and have slowly but surely collected references and articles on the Scottish Targe as members have referenced them. I have found the "best" description of construction available through an article in "The Third Park Lane Arms Fair" dated 1986 which contained an article by Colin R. Rolland titled "The Dirk and Target - their use together". I will quote that article later below.
But to catch up with Scottish Targe construction highlights I would recommend this article: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_shield.html I personally have as yet to purchase the text "The Anglo-Saxon Shield" by I P Stephenson but it comes highly rated by many of the members here. In my humble opinion the Construction of the Viking shield up through the migration period seems to be a fore bearer (pun intended) of the Scottish Targe so the style and means of construction is very similar.
From what I can tell a universal "truth" of Scottish Targes is the fact that they always had a hand grip. Hand grips appear to be quite diverse based on whatever was available, though leather strap appears to be the single most dominant element. At times an iron handle was used. It was formed as a large D where the backside of the D would be the shield itself. The legs of the handle would be bent outwards--away from the bearers hands--at 90 degrees and run through a split pin also of iron. It appears that the pin itself may have run only through the inner most boards of the shield construction and then peened over to lock them in place. PLEASE NOTE: this is an educated guess so I could be utterly wrong!! As a point of reference the iron grips be similar to an older style pull drawer, but the outer part of the D (the part that fits in the hand) would be curved for a more comfortable grip.
The forearm would often be slipped through one or two loops or alternatively a length leather tube or sleeve. I have seen examples of both buckled and fixed length loops, sleeve examples are universally--ahem, in my experience anyway--of fixed width. To quote the above article directly regarding arm loops and their construction: "Where loops still exist, they are usually nailed - sometimes quite insecurely - to the back, otherwise they are attached via a pair of iron staples ... which provide a much better fixing." You can reference this discussion thread on an alternative site with excellent pictures: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=91800
Main thing to call out in terms of construction is that either backside was stuffed with hair, leather scraps, straw, or whatever was handy to cushion an assailants blow on the arm. This was either the entire backside, or the area up against the forearm. If only the forearm were to be padded a strip of leather was laid over the backing material and stitched in place to keep the stuff in place. Some examples also show the areas above and below the fore arm split into two (2) or three (3) pie shapes with some kind of leather piece stitched in place. When I had to scrimp on materials I found the use of the pie shapes to be the best way to make small skins fit my needs. So this could be aesthetic, to affix the backing hide better, or as in my experience, a practical matter to make more of less. Again, this is my opinion and observation and could be utterly WRONG!
In the same article mentioned, the author states that of existing examples remaining Scottish Targes were mostly constructed of oak or pine, oak tending to be thinner and pine a bit thicker. Average width of completed targe is about 1/2 inch. Mr. Rolland indicates that boards or slats used in Scottish Targe construction are random width slats ranging from a couple of inches (e.g 2) up to half of the diameter of the shield itself. These boards are simply butted together without any additional joinery, ie pegs, biscuits, tongue-and-groove. While Mr. Rolland makes no comment on whether the boards are glued together, other authors suggest that the boards were butt joined (edge-to-edge glued to bond into wider board). Targe is constructed of two (2) layers of such butted together slats with the grain running at 90 degrees one layer to another. I have found a modern re-enactment group that suggest Pine be placed an 60 degrees (http://www.maccolin.com/bg/MILIT2.htm) though the "why" of it escapes me presently.
In the same article Mr. Rolland makes no comment about glue joinery between the two layers of the shield, but does state that one or more concentric circles of pegs are used to keep the layers together. Additional pegs would be added as necessary to keep the structure together. A furniture making friend of mine assures me that a peg construction with the right kind of offset between the sets of wholes in the two layers will bond the slats together that no glue would be necessary at any point. I have tinkered a bit in the garage and take my friend at his word, though the technique takes a lot of practice.
The outside of the shield would typically be covered in European Buff hide. After a year's search I have not as yet found a supplier from whom I could purchase to be a complete "re-creationist geek" but if I find one I will let you know. In the meantime Tandy Leather Factory in the states does offer an "armorer" vegetable tanned leather that is similar in thickness. A cows hide, or nearly bald deer hide, or whatever was convenient would be used on the inside of the shield. Two things to keep in mind when covering the shield:
#1 - make sure you have more than enough "slop" to wrap the hide over the shield and anchor on the alternate side
#2 - make sure you make little V cuts from the outer edge of your leather with the pointy part of the V towards the center of the shield. In a sense this is your seam allowance. I like to pretty things up a bit and trim the points of the any left overs once I have tacked the leather in place.
Note that I choose to put on the inner backing--if any--before the outer and then choose to use small brass nails on the "rim" of the two layer construction to keep it in place. I have never been satisfied that this is correct as the nail heads tend to wear the leather faster. My next experiment is to actually use iron staples for the backside, and then cover with the front and use brass nails to see if I get something that holds up better.
I started by tooling leather first and getting into Target making second. Scottish Targes most probably used a method often called "boiled leather" or cuir bouille. Most important thing here is that if you actually put leather in boiling water you will end up with a big awful stinky mess so DO NOT DO IT! Soak the leather until the air bubbles stop coming up to "boil the water". This will actually over soak your leather, so plan on some time to experiment. I find less than a minute works for most pieces. Anyway, tooling a design before you mount it is harder as it may be difficult to center the design and leather is not always the same thickness and so some disturbance in the design should be expected. At present I tend still "boil" the leather, mount it, then plan on a solid eight (8) hours of tooling a design. Depending on the desired hardness varying how rapidly or slowly the leather dries will affect the hardness. I tend to dry mine out rapidly to maximize hardness.
At this point a nice brown or deep red colored tanning die works well. Accent the design you selected with brass nails and brass embellishments.
I am sure there are about 1000 other things I have learned by cursing--I mean talking--to my creations over the last year.
OPINION:
- I am increasingly convinced that the Scottish Targe used the peg construction indicated by Mr. Rolland without any glue, but instead relied on peg hole placement to create appropriate tensions in the boards to provide a glue less laminate. The laminate was then "held in place" by the hides covering the inside and the outsides of the Targe itself. In wearing both modern plywood, and heavily butt joined (sic glued together thicker laminate) that what I create is a rock solid construction that transfers as much of the impact of a sword hit into me as it does the individual trying to hit me. But allowing the boards to flex ever so slightly tires the assailant far more rapidly without making my arms and shoulders hurt in the morning. But hey, what do I know, I live in the 21st century and do not fight for a living with 16th century arms.
Hope this helps and I have endeavored to call our resources and my own opinions where possible. Corrections with pointers to references will be **IMMENSELY** appreciated.
I am Scottish, French, and Prussian! Yeah, I need help figuring it out too.
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Matthew D G
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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wow  Thank you John for posting all that info, this is exactly the kind of help I was needing! That cleared up quit a few questions 
thank you again!
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes."
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Kenneth Powell Hutchison
Location: United Kingdom Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jan, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: kite sheild with a boss |
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the boss may still have been in place should the user had to form a hasty sheild wall. a this places the hand away from the edge of the sheild allowing the user to get closer to his fellow fighter. also if they had to move with haste would it not be easier to just grab the sheild by a handle than slide your arm through the loops.
just a random thought based on the idea of troops in hostile country. ie Normans in england before the land has been pacified.
what do you mean all the meads gone. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Gareth Prior
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: Home made shield |
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Here a shield I made using two boards of plywood following ye olde gaffers suggestions - although we used sash clamps to hold the curve - its 28" across as opposed to 21" but its for a crossbowman to sling around the shoulders rather than to be used just with arming sword (though it can be) the only issue we had was finding the right glue to hold the curve, 2nd time lucky.
 Attachment: 98.25 KB
Shield [ Download ]
Try? Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try.
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