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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Don Stanko wrote: | | Hey Sam, I just thought of a modern example where edged weapons are just as useful as firearms. In South Africa, the officers are taught to use a knife in conjuction with a firearm. You see, over there when an officer pulls his weapon on a suspect, many times an onlooker will charge the officer from behind or from the side in an attempt to take the firearm so it can be sold at a later date. This has become such a problem that the police academy has developed a shooting stance where the off hand is holding a knife, just underneath the hand holding the firearm (much like a police officer might hold a flashlight in the US). If anybody comes close the officer would slash at the suprise attacker, protecting his weapon. Also, in India if a recruit fails his firearms qualifications, he is armed with a machete instead. So, there are parts of the world today where edged weapons are still favored!!! |
I think you're mistaken. Edged weapons are not favored in those instances over firearms. They are either being used as a supplement, or as a base-line weapon because of a lack of proficiency. The original Heinlein quote that started this thread rather naively stated that a sword was superior to a firearm. No one who has ever been under fire will tell you that they would have rather had a knife, sword, machete, leatherman tool, or whatever. If they do they're an idiot who needs to be culled through Gods process of natural selection. Like Sam, if I was going to Irag I wouldn't mind having an edged weapon as a "just in case", but I certainly wouldn't leave my pistol or my primary longarm under my rack in favor of my Rambo sticker. When I served on my agencies tactical unit I carried an old Buck Nighthawk on my LBV. The only thing I ever used it on was a dog that came at me while I was belly crawling through a soybean field. (I hate soybeans to this day because of that experience, although I still like dogs) It was nice to have "just in case", but I sure wasn't going to kick in a door with it in hand.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
My first choice as / for an attacker is the gun. In defense the danger is to underestimate the knife when taken by surprise, or if not by surprise, at extremely close range were reaction time with a firearm is just slow enough to bring the knife / gun to parity.
As a back-up the knife is a good thing even if only for morale and as a general survival tool. A tomahawk or smachet would also be a good choice. ( More for combat or swat than regular police work, in that case a quality 4" to 5" combat folder or small neck knife like a Spyderco Ronin. )
With police work you can't draw your gun before some reasonable sign of danger and someone with the only goal to get you could get very close with a drawn but hidden knife if they didn't telegraf their intentions, this is were that 21 foot rule really comes into play. Avoiding / deflecting may be faster than going for the gun in that first split second and even if you successfully shoot the attacker it may still be nescessary to avoid / deflect the blade before the attacker lights go out.
So it's not a case of not going for your gun but one of going for the gun not being your only action: Mostly it's an all at once thing.
I'm just glad that this is just a mind game for me: So be careful out there Patrick.
 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Patrick;
My first choice as / for an attacker is the gun. In defense the danger is to underestimate the knife when taken by surprise, or if not by surprise, at extremely close range were reaction time with a firearm is just slow enough to bring the knife / gun to parity.
As a back-up the knife is a good thing even if only for morale and as a general survival tool. A tomahawk or smachet would also be a good choice. ( More for combat or swat than regular police work, in that case a quality 4" to 5" combat folder or small neck knife like a Spyderco Ronin. )
With police work you can't draw your gun before some reasonable sign of danger and someone with the only goal to get you could get very close with a drawn but hidden knife if they didn't telegraf their intentions, this is were that 21 foot rule really comes into play. Avoiding / deflecting may be faster than going for the gun in that first split second and even if you successfully shoot the attacker it may still be nescessary to avoid / deflect the blade before the attacker lights go out.
So it's not a case of not going for your gun but one of going for the gun not being your only action: Mostly it's an all at once thing.I'm just glad that this is just a mind game for me: So be careful out there Patrick. |
Really? In twelve years of police work none of that ever occured to me.   I speak from experience Jean, not from mental exercise and theory, and anyone who's "been there" will tell you that they would never assume to underestimate a knife. It's about having options and using the right, and most efficient, tool for the job. We can play "what if", and "maybe" forever, but the plain fact is that some weapons are superior to others.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Well, I'm glad that if this kind of stuff is mostly theoretical and IS a RARE event ! ( But I sincerely mean the take care part. )
In any case we should probably change the subject back to swords and armour.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: It's all about the math. |
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What in interesting topic here. I don't know aout the 21 foot demonstration between the gun and the knife. But if someone charges me unexpectedly with a knife and I have a holstered pistol I feel resonably sure I will do two things: 1) back up while I draw to keep his at a distance 2) attempt to aim as carefully as possible. Now number 2 is where practice, practice, practice comes in. As Patrick will tell you, a handgun is a very personal thing. If a policeman is carrying one, he needs to proficient with that pistol to the point where when he has to draw, the gun instinctively comes to his firing position and he gets a smooth trigger pull. My father, a policeman for over 30 years now, would often practice on his own on the weekends to accomplish this this. He often tells us now that he deosn't even see the sights on his Sig anymore at 20 yards and he consistantly hits 3" to 5" diameter groups. One thing he always stressed to us is a smooth trigger pull. It took me a long time not to roll th egun as I pulled the trigger on my P226. If you do a little math, at 21 feet away, if you pull the gun 2 degrees to one side, that will translate to about 8.5" on the target. This becomes less if the target is closer and more if the target is farther away.
There are hundreds if not thousands of variations of this scenerio when you think about it. There was a case my father was involved in where a guy charged out of a bathroom with a bowie knife and stabbed one of his fellow officers who already had his gun drawn. The officer never got off a shot, was wounded but recovered. The assailant was hit 8 times with a 357 and 40 when he tried to attack the other policemen. My brother, a Louisiana State Trooper , had a friend who was attacked with a knife during a traffic stop. The guy was only 10 feet away when he drew the knife. The trooper took a nasty stab to the arm, got out his Glock 9mm and fired 6 shots into the assailant's chest. So one could go round about with this all day. As we haev seen in other combative pairings (i.e. sumari vs Knight) it all comes down to skill, luck and timing.
Joel
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David R. Glier
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jul, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick: Undoubtedly you've trained and used longarms far more extensively than I've yet had chance to do.
Any reaction to my/Sam's thoughts on a blade as off-hand weapon in that scenario? Or would you simply carry your sidearm in a left-hand cross-draw holster?
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Don Stanko
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
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I think you're mistaken. Edged weapons are not favored in those instances over firearms. They are either being used as a supplement, or as a base-line weapon because of a lack of proficiency.
Patrick, you are correct, edged weapons are not favored over firearms, I was just illustrating the fact that they still have a practical use in modern society. Either as a supplement to a firearm or as a replacement if somebody lacks the proficiency to use a firearm (such is the case in India).
In fact, the only instance where I would use an edged over a firearm would be if a fellow officer was wrestling with an aggressor who had a knife and I was concerned with finding a clear shot that didnt endanger the other officer. Such close quarters combat can be tricky since the possibility of a round exiting the aggressor is there. Of course, if our Division allowed us to use Tasers, I would prefer that...But they dont.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Patrick;
Well, I'm glad that if this kind of stuff is mostly theoretical and IS a RARE event ! ( But I sincerely mean the take care part. )
In any case we should probably change the subject back to swords and armour. |
No problems here Jean. I may have come off as a bit abrupt in that last response, my apologies there.
Thanks for the concern.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 7:04 am Post subject: |
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In no way do I mean that an edged weapon is a better choice than a firearm I was only commenting on the danger of focusing all of ones attention on the firearm and neglecting the need to avoid that blade.
I'm sure that this is all old information to professional law enforcement people and my apologies if it seemed that I was lecturing them.
Patrick said:
( " Really? In twelve years of police work none of that ever occurred to me. " )
I MISREAD this as meaning never been in that situation as opposed to "yes I am aware of all this "
Just misread the meaning of occurred, sorry 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| David R. Glier wrote: | Patrick: Undoubtedly you've trained and used longarms far more extensively than I've yet had chance to do.
Any reaction to my/Sam's thoughts on a blade as off-hand weapon in that scenario? Or would you simply carry your sidearm in a left-hand cross-draw holster? |
I do agree with you that an edged weapon with a blade of between 10-15 inches would make a very good piece of supplemental equipment. I also disagree with your assertion that the pistol is flawed as a back-up weapon. A pistol can be used in the same close environment as an edged weapon yet is much more effective. It's good to have both options though since combat tends to occur in a non-linear fashion, be it on a street in Kabul or on a Highway in the midwest.
As for the Navy re-issuing something like the cutlass, well, if someone had handed me a cutlass during my Navy days and told me I was going to have to use it I would have known we were in pretty deep fecal matter.
In my environment I'd never consider using a cross-draw holster since it makes the weapon too vulnerable to a grab. I have seen them used on load bearing equipment and have mixed feelings about that. I always used a thigh holster when geared up in that fashion. I do think the idea of the knife in the off hand has merit, as in the South African scenario. They've obviously found a way for an edged weapon to be useful in a certain set of circumstances, and that's why it's good to have one, it's all about options.
I do agree with your remark about all of the gear that we're now equipping our military and law enforcement with. We're getting far too much junk on our belts. I've lost track of the number of widgets I've been issued, both as a road officer and as a member of a tactical unit. Someone thought it was a great piece of equipment, but they didn't have to lug the stuff around on a day to day business either. A lot of that stuff has wound up in a desk draw. I now carry a total of thirty pounds of equipment on my person every time I go to work.
At least in my profession, I strongly feel that we're focusing too much on technology and not enough on the human element. We can give an officer a new toy but far too often we neglect to teach them when and where to properly use it. This is very clear now that we're dealing with the so-called "entightlement generation". Many of them have led a rather sheltered and catered existence, and they lack a lot of the real-world maturity needed for the job. All too often we need to teach them how to be adults before we can teach them to be law enforcement officers. On many occasions I've told my upper chain of command that I'd rather see us train our people to use what they've got rather than throw a quick fix at them in the form of a new toy. Then again, I'm none too popular with my chain of command. Those toys may be great but there are many ways to avoid using them and still do our job. Too many people in my profession have the mentality of "I have it so I'm going to use it". This is a mistake in my opinion.
Anyway, the original point was the superiority of edged weapons over firearms. My opinion is that a knife, sword, whatever, is never in any circumstance superior to a firearm. There may be situations where an edged weapon is needed and in those instances it's good to have one, and that's why you should have one. But to use one as a first choice weapon is folly IMHO.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
...
Anyway, the original point was the superiority of edged weapons over firearms. My opinion is that a knife, sword, whatever, is never in any circumstance superior to a firearm. There may be situations where an edged weapon is needed and in those instances it's good to have one, and that's why you should have one. But to use one as a first choice weapon is folly IMHO. |
I have zero expertise here, but I can think of a couple - possibly far fetched - that might come up
Air marshall vs terrorist in a pressurized cabin at altitude
Combat in the dark with possible non-combatants present (home defense, for instance, when you have kids sleeping in the next room)
Ok - here is a silly one -
Combat in space
The central idea being that with a gun, you can't necessarily control the full effect of the bullet. It can pass around or through its target and go on to damage things you don't want damaged. Of course, in such a situation, a stun gun might make more sense than an edged weapon.
Gordon
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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I read a draft for a knife fighting manual by William Ewart Fairnbarn, the guy who more or less reintroduced close combat to the british army during WWII.
His one of his major argument for issuing and troops to use fighting knifes is one of morale. A sentry or scout will feel a lot more comfortable knowing he's got a weapon in case he is suddenly engaged at point blank range.
there is a quite nice story from the norwegian-soviet border during the cold war;
This was during the 60's. NATO was arranging a major exercise in the north atlantic, and the soviets where not amused; The russian Northern Fleet and Army was at the highest level of alert. The fleet was at sea, and the tank divisons where ready in their staging areas, just across the border.
Facing them where the Sørvaranger garrison; a token force of about 150 border guards. (the main norwegain forces are stationed stationed further south.) The Soviets tanks where driving up and down the bank of the border river, artillery shells where landing only a few hundred meters form the border.
The comander later stated that:
"We felt certain that this was it. We sat there, just waiting. The situation was very tense, and I was very worried about the boys morale.
Then, one of the men got out a whetstone, and, silently, started to sharpen his bayonet. Then his sami Knife (A 12", broad bladed knife, used by the Sami people, and adopted by soldiers and hunters due to its usefullness).
When he was finished, he passed the whetstone on to the man next to him, who silently took it and started to do the same. Right then I knew that they where going to do all right."
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
I must admonish you though, in that in my experience, knives are FAR superior for slicing steaks... Pistols are SOOOO messy at that!
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | Patrick;
I must admonish you though, in that in my experience, knives are FAR superior for slicing steaks... Pistols are SOOOO messy at that!
Cheers!
Gordon |
Perhaps, but guns are superior tenderizers!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I find that I have to keep the bullet holes real close together to cut myself a bite and I run out of bullets before I finisn the steak if I don' t use a beltfed machine gun.
An MG 42 seems to be the best for this ........... OOOOOOOPS, I think the local SWAT team is busting my door down: How
" ANNOYING " this happens every time I try to eat steak. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 7:15 am Post subject: |
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A Pancor Jackhammer or similar FA shotgun, with Beanbag rounds would do the tenderizing jobb admirably!
For slicing beef, see the American 180 SMG; 22 cal, 1000 rounds/minute++, 350 shot magazine...
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Gordon Frye wrote: | Patrick;
I must admonish you though, in that in my experience, knives are FAR superior for slicing steaks... Pistols are SOOOO messy at that!
Cheers!
Gordon |
Perhaps, but guns are superior tenderizers! |
Absolutely, but at somewhat greater risk of increasing the bills from the dentist.
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