Patrick;

My first choice as / for an attacker is the gun. In defense the danger is to underestimate the knife when taken by surprise, or if not by surprise, at extremely close range were reaction time with a firearm is just slow enough to bring the knife / gun to parity.

As a back-up the knife is a good thing even if only for morale and as a general survival tool. A tomahawk or smachet would also be a good choice. ( More for combat or swat than regular police work, in that case a quality 4" to 5" combat folder or small neck knife like a Spyderco Ronin. )

With police work you can't draw your gun before some reasonable sign of danger and someone with the only goal to get you could get very close with a drawn but hidden knife if they didn't telegraf their intentions, this is were that 21 foot rule really comes into play. Avoiding / deflecting may be faster than going for the gun in that first split second and even if you successfully shoot the attacker it may still be nescessary to avoid / deflect the blade before the attacker lights go out.

So it's not a case of not going for your gun but one of going for the gun not being your only action: Mostly it's an all at once thing.
I'm just glad that this is just a mind game for me: So be careful out there Patrick.
:\ :D

Patrick;

Well, I'm glad that if this kind of stuff is mostly theoretical and IS a RARE event ! ( But I sincerely mean the take care part. )

In any case we should probably change the subject back to swords and armour.

It's okay for you guys to disagree and even put forth questions and other opinions. Let's make sure we stay tolerant of each other in the process.

What in interesting topic here. I don't know aout the 21 foot demonstration between the gun and the knife. But if someone charges me unexpectedly with a knife and I have a holstered pistol I feel resonably sure I will do two things: 1) back up while I draw to keep his at a distance 2) attempt to aim as carefully as possible. Now number 2 is where practice, practice, practice comes in. As Patrick will tell you, a handgun is a very personal thing. If a policeman is carrying one, he needs to proficient with that pistol to the point where when he has to draw, the gun instinctively comes to his firing position and he gets a smooth trigger pull. My father, a policeman for over 30 years now, would often practice on his own on the weekends to accomplish this this. He often tells us now that he deosn't even see the sights on his Sig anymore at 20 yards and he consistantly hits 3" to 5" diameter groups. One thing he always stressed to us is a smooth trigger pull. It took me a long time not to roll th egun as I pulled the trigger on my P226. If you do a little math, at 21 feet away, if you pull the gun 2 degrees to one side, that will translate to about 8.5" on the target. This becomes less if the target is closer and more if the target is farther away.

There are hundreds if not thousands of variations of this scenerio when you think about it. There was a case my father was involved in where a guy charged out of a bathroom with a bowie knife and stabbed one of his fellow officers who already had his gun drawn. The officer never got off a shot, was wounded but recovered. The assailant was hit 8 times with a 357 and 40 when he tried to attack the other policemen. My brother, a Louisiana State Trooper , had a friend who was attacked with a knife during a traffic stop. The guy was only 10 feet away when he drew the knife. The trooper took a nasty stab to the arm, got out his Glock 9mm and fired 6 shots into the assailant's chest. So one could go round about with this all day. As we haev seen in other combative pairings (i.e. sumari vs Knight) it all comes down to skill, luck and timing.

Joel

Patrick: Undoubtedly you've trained and used longarms far more extensively than I've yet had chance to do.
Any reaction to my/Sam's thoughts on a blade as off-hand weapon in that scenario? Or would you simply carry your sidearm in a left-hand cross-draw holster?

I think you're mistaken. Edged weapons are not favored in those instances over firearms. They are either being used as a supplement, or as a base-line weapon because of a lack of proficiency.

Patrick, you are correct, edged weapons are not favored over firearms, I was just illustrating the fact that they still have a practical use in modern society. Either as a supplement to a firearm or as a replacement if somebody lacks the proficiency to use a firearm (such is the case in India).

In fact, the only instance where I would use an edged over a firearm would be if a fellow officer was wrestling with an aggressor who had a knife and I was concerned with finding a clear shot that didnt endanger the other officer. Such close quarters combat can be tricky since the possibility of a round exiting the aggressor is there. Of course, if our Division allowed us to use Tasers, I would prefer that...But they dont.

In no way do I mean that an edged weapon is a better choice than a firearm I was only commenting on the danger of focusing all of ones attention on the firearm and neglecting the need to avoid that blade.

I'm sure that this is all old information to professional law enforcement people and my apologies if it seemed that I was lecturing them.

Patrick said:

( " Really? In twelve years of police work none of that ever occurred to me. " )

I MISREAD this as meaning never been in that situation as opposed to "yes I am aware of all this "

Just misread the meaning of occurred, sorry :blush:

I read a draft for a knife fighting manual by William Ewart Fairnbarn, the guy who more or less reintroduced close combat to the british army during WWII.

His one of his major argument for issuing and troops to use fighting knifes is one of morale. A sentry or scout will feel a lot more comfortable knowing he's got a weapon in case he is suddenly engaged at point blank range.


there is a quite nice story from the norwegian-soviet border during the cold war;
This was during the 60's. NATO was arranging a major exercise in the north atlantic, and the soviets where not amused; The russian Northern Fleet and Army was at the highest level of alert. The fleet was at sea, and the tank divisons where ready in their staging areas, just across the border.
Facing them where the Sørvaranger garrison; a token force of about 150 border guards. (the main norwegain forces are stationed stationed further south.) The Soviets tanks where driving up and down the bank of the border river, artillery shells where landing only a few hundred meters form the border.
The comander later stated that:
"We felt certain that this was it. We sat there, just waiting. The situation was very tense, and I was very worried about the boys morale.
Then, one of the men got out a whetstone, and, silently, started to sharpen his bayonet. Then his sami Knife (A 12", broad bladed knife, used by the Sami people, and adopted by soldiers and hunters due to its usefullness).
When he was finished, he passed the whetstone on to the man next to him, who silently took it and started to do the same. Right then I knew that they where going to do all right."

Patrick;

I must admonish you though, in that in my experience, knives are FAR superior for slicing steaks... Pistols are SOOOO messy at that!

Cheers!

Gordon

I find that I have to keep the bullet holes real close together to cut myself a bite and I run out of bullets before I finisn the steak if I don' t use a beltfed machine gun.

An MG 42 seems to be the best for this ........... OOOOOOOPS, I think the local SWAT team is busting my door down: How
" ANNOYING " this happens every time I try to eat steak. :p :p :p

A Pancor Jackhammer or similar FA shotgun, with Beanbag rounds would do the tenderizing jobb admirably!

For slicing beef, see the American 180 SMG; 22 cal, 1000 rounds/minute++, 350 shot magazine...