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Shane Allee
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for confiming similar bronze age tools Jeroen. The concept is simple enough, but I kind of figured it would be harder to know for sure. Figured it might be one of the things that would be overlooked somewhat by archaeologist, or be hard to tell much about it. Makes since that the bronze age ones would stand out better though, that thin iron sheet wouldn't fair nearly as well. *G*

As far as other daggers being more or less impressive, that kind of comes down to both modern and period taste. With more use of organics in the la tene cultures they don't always stand out as much as others might. One of my personal favorite la tene daggers is the one found in the thames with the hilt of small connected rings, it is on display in the British museum so there should be pics of it around. Many of the anthros are just daggers though, even the largers ones would fall somewhere between sword and dagger size. The Iberian daggers can be decorated up pretty fancy and are up there in complexity as far as construction.

I've attached another pic of a couple Hallstatt daggers, one is suppost to be the prince of Hochdorf's. I would assume the gold clad one since his shoes had gold foil. Not sure about the other one though...



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hallstatt daggers.jpg

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Matthew Kelty





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PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess my point though is that these were not left raw forged, evrything cutlery wise seems to have been ground and polished in period, and some of the razors, swords and knives retain quite a nice finish, where preserved by submersion or an anoxic environment. It would no have been left completely raw-forged in period, I believe.


And I would agree with you 100%... Happy

< Anecdote >

Jim 'Atar' Hrisoulas actually had several go rounds with various customers over the years that argued his pieces couldn't *possibly* be hand forged, "...they are all too clean and consistent". Granted, Jim does use grinding belts for the finishes, but these are merely faster versions than the poor shmucks leaning over a water driven wheel. 90% of the shaping happens hot, and he's merely removing the scale , adjusting any "wobbles" along the edge, adding the choil, radiusing the shoulder of the tang, and providing the polish.

Since he received so many snarky comments from disbeleivers, he finally gave into their demands, and started pounding Railroad spikes into knives, purposefully adding dings and sloppy hits along the way, and then just removing the scale, and giving it a rough polish and sharpening....

...and they sell like hotcakes... Happy

< / Anecdote >

Guess you just give people what they want... Happy
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Folkert van Wijk




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Celtic fithing knifes....         Reply with quote

In the meantime I have found "more" Celtic La Tene knifes that appear to be more like fithing knifes.
And there fore would like to see if I can re-open this debate....

Offcourse many Celtic swords and spears have bin found but probably mostly from rich graves and ritual depots created by Celtic enemies being proud of there fictory's? And therefore offering the most elaborate weapons that would please there Gods... The most common (fighting) knifes would simply be put to use again by it's new owner or something...

The more common ironage men that couldn't afford such luxurious weaponry would only have a spear and or a fighting knife making him a light "infantry trooper"... Nothing you would really by proud of killing...

This men wouldn't also have bin buried in a rich grave with grave goods and therefore nowadays would not be found.
And so wouldn't be able to tell us the "story" of the poor commoners that where fithing there enemys with knifes...

Am I making sens???

The knifes I found so far are by it's shape i quess use fore slassing like a falcata and or modern kukri...
See for your self and tell my what you think. I think it would be nice to see more of this stuff and maybe a replica somewhere..

http://www.ashokaarts.com/ancient/an-6.htm



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A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…

I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Shane Allee
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Folkert,

It has taken a bit to get back to this topic, but I finally sit down and go through my thoughts and try to type them out. The first weapon pictured there is a pretty interesting style that I've had some thoughts about for awhile now. Hope to pick one up if I can get the chance from ebay for a study piece, they are coming fairly regularly from the Balkan area. There may be regional names for these, but I have yet to find a name for this specific type. They seem to be more commonly Thracian in origin the best I can tell, however with the intermixing of goods it can get difficult to classify graves as specifically celtic or thracian in these areas. Most of the time they seem to feature the "T" type of back and lack the double curve along the cutting edge. These two characteristics pretty much separate them from the falcata. They share a bit more in common with the machaira in the "T" type of back, but still lack the double curve along the cutting edge. We also see this with the rhomphia as well. So it is in the family, but I think a specific type adapted most likely by the thracians. Also seems to make since that this might also be somewhat of the forerunner of the dacian Falx we start seeing a bit later.

As far as the La Tene knives go, I still think it is very hard to tell the intended function of these. All we really have to go on in many cases is their association with other grave goods like Nate pointed out. The one thing that holds me back somewhat on these being carried either on the battlefield or even more of an everyday basis is that I would image that we would have more sheaths or scabbards for them than we really do. We do have some, but for the most part I don't think they are really even finding too much that would even indicate a simple leather sheath with these. There may be more found then I realized, but they just seem to be more around the home/work area items.

Shane
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

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Folkert van Wijk




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: More Celtic knifes         Reply with quote

First of all: Seesons greetings to all, and I do hope every body "survived" Christmas without gaining to much extra weight.

I resently discovered this archeological auction/shop/store like site with some Celtic knifes that I wanted to ad to this thread.
And wanted to know your opinion...
They do look a bid diffent then what I have seen before, these appear pretty slim.

http://www.stormbroek.com/print.php?tbl=Prehi...c&pg=2
http://www.stormbroek.com/print.php?tbl=Prehi...c&pg=1

Folkert

A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…

I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Shane Allee
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Dec, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would have to say buyer beware. StormBroek sells regularly on ebay, but I don't tend to pay much attention to an auction after I see the name. They sell some nice looking antiques, but not all seem to be as dated. Some spears sold as celtic featured a square median ridge, something that I have only ever seen possitively identified on antique african spears of a much much later date. That is just one example of some of the questionable auctions I have noticed in the last couple years from them. The knives listed don't honestly look anything like the celtic la tene stuff, so it would take a some very good solid research before I would consider it safe to say they are such.

Shane
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Folkert van Wijk




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Dec, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shane Allee wrote:
I would have to say buyer beware. StormBroek sells regularly on ebay, but I don't tend to pay much attention to an auction after I see the name. They sell some nice looking antiques, but not all seem to be as dated. Some spears sold as celtic featured a square median ridge, something that I have only ever seen possitively identified on antique african spears of a much much later date. That is just one example of some of the questionable auctions I have noticed in the last couple years from them. The knives listed don't honestly look anything like the celtic la tene stuff, so it would take a some very good solid research before I would consider it safe to say they are such.

Shane


Hm I am not a buyer... Only someone looking for more info upon his aera of interrest.
On auction site's one can often find the (inspiring) more common day objects of times gone by...

But hey, whom can you trust those days..?
Those internet site auctions appeare not to be backed by profecional archeolegists (how did I whrite that? Worried )
instead by people wishing to make money the easyer way...

So I quess it's back to the books and maybe some museum cataloges and visits...

Again Happy New Year to everyone!!
Folkert

A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…

I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some interesting knives dating to the Hallstatt period (source [url]http://www2.rgzm.de/tomba1/home/frames.htm [/url]):


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Iron knife Hallstatt grave 126 Austria 730-660BC

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Iron knife Hallstatt grave 298 Austria 730-660BC

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Iron knife with bone handle Bad Duerrnberg Austria grave73 620-530BC

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Iron knife with handle Hallstatt grave 1003 Austria 730-660BC

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Iron knives with bone handles KappelamRhein Germany Tumulus 3 620-530BC

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metal knife with wooden scabbard Italy 730-660BC

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Crooked knife tumulus 1 grave 16 Slovenija 730-660BC

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Crooked knife tumulus 1 grave 16 Slovenija 730-660BC
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jeroen!

The last knife/short sword you posted, the krooked one from Slovenija, is of a type that long have had a special interest to me.
I always thought those were of Italian type (but an area of use including the balkans seems very natural, of course).
Do you, or any one else know more about that particular type?
I have some (not too detailed) copies of other blades of this type (can´t post them, sorry. My scanner is not in the right mood...). They are of Etruscan contex and look a bit like very drawn out and narrow Kukri knives. Cross section is a sturdy triangular wedge (makes for a good strong point as well...). One is about 55-60 cm in the blade, most seem to have been shorter (?).
I have long entertained thoughts of making such a short sword, but never got round to actually do it (...story of my life).

The one you posted Jeroen seems to have an all bronze hilt. Interesting!
Thanks for posting these.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Hey Jeroen!

The last knife/short sword you posted, the krooked one from Slovenija, is of a type that long have had a special interest to me.
I always thought those were of Italian type (but an area of use including the balkans seems very natural, of course).
Do you, or any one else know more about that particular type?

Nope, I just got to learn about it first while I was browsing through the Tomba website. It's a gorgeous piece, especially with the complete scabbard and bronze hilt. I believe I recall having seen similar shaped blades in a diagram Kirk (?) once posted of the development from urnfield knife to falcata.

Quote:
I have some (not too detailed) copies of other blades of this type (can´t post them, sorry. My scanner is not in the right mood...). They are of Etruscan contex and look a bit like very drawn out and narrow Kukri knives. Cross section is a sturdy triangular wedge (makes for a good strong point as well...). One is about 55-60 cm in the blade, most seem to have been shorter (?).
I have long entertained thoughts of making such a short sword, but never got round to actually do it (...story of my life).
Sounds all too familiar. The list of things I still want to make grows much faster then I can make them! It now includes several of the knives I just posted as well Happy
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Nope, I just got to learn about it first while I was browsing through the Tomba website. It's a gorgeous piece, especially with the complete scabbard and bronze hilt. I believe I recall having seen similar shaped blades in a diagram Kirk (?) once posted of the development from urnfield knife to falcata.

Here it is:

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Paul Mullins





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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate something you might want to consider on the finish of these knives. Since they were more than likely utility knives used for daily chores, eating, cutting rope, skinning animals the finish would not necessarily be as the same standards as a sword for instance.

However I agree that they would have probably been finished to a higher degree than the repro shown.
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A little bit late, but....(one of my prefered weapons of the hallstatt culture Happy )

I´m sitting here at one of my projects: The reconstruction of an (broadbladed) hallstatt dagger.

I´ve seen enough originals of hallstatt weapons - some in particularly good preservation. The sword- or daggerblades, the lances and spears - all was high grade grinded and polished (i guess sometimes near mirror-like).

Rough surfaces boost the danger for rust!

Facts about hallstatt dagger:

- The dagger was the sign of the free high class member of the westhallstatt society - in easthallstatt region the axe.
- Only a little group is usable as weapon (some construction is very...fragile)!
- No one looks like the other - but in the graves of Hallstatt are some pieces of the same artisan.
- There´s no grave with sword (Mindelheim, Gündlingen,...) and dagger. There was a clear "cut" between HA C2/ HA D1. (Cultural change?)
- The anthropological checked skeletons with dagger are older then 35 years. There´s one grave with dagger and boy - and with an adult man (over 35). Younger = no dagger. (But sometimes a Knife!)
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote



My first reconstruction of an organic hilted (elmtree, antler) hallstatt dagger (typical for south germany/ north switzerland).

Now i´ve to polish and to sharp it....
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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve

That is a trully awesome dagger.

What are the stats / dimensions?

Thanks

Danny
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Oct, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Steve

That is a trully awesome dagger.

What are the stats / dimensions?

Thanks

Danny



What he said,
plus, would this have a been in the line from which the pugio emerged?
Geoff
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Oct, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Length: 36cm (9,58cm hilt without heft and pommel)
Width (broadest blade): 4,65cm
Width (blade, at heft): 4,35cm
Thickness (blade, at heft): 7,8mm
Thickness (blade, middle): 7,1mm
Thickness (1cm to the point): 3,8mm

Balance point: 3,35cm from the heft

Weigth: 200 gramms

The daggers of this hallstatt zone was inspired by celtiberian daggers (and also trading goods from there). But between them and the roman pugio are over 350 years i guess (i´m not familiar with roman weapon history) with an break in that design!
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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Oct, 2006 3:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve

Is this a replica of any particular existing dagger? If so have you got a pic of the original?

Perhaps it is based on a dagger similar to the one Jeroen posted on the first page:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/tgrb/leger_museum_de...140024.jpg

or perhaps on the ones in the pic attached?

Thanks

Danny



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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Oct, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nope - it´s a free reco, but bloody hard in style of the westhallstatt culture. Every hallstatt dagger was unique - also my own! Cool

But i can make recos of originals too....
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