[Shane Allee]

Thanks for confiming similar bronze age tools Jeroen. The concept is simple enough, but I kind of figured it would be harder to know for sure. Figured it might be one of the things that would be overlooked somewhat by archaeologist, or be hard to tell much about it. Makes since that the bronze age ones would stand out better though, that thin iron sheet wouldn't fair nearly as well. *G*

As far as other daggers being more or less impressive, that kind of comes down to both modern and period taste. With more use of organics in the la tene cultures they don't always stand out as much as others might. One of my personal favorite la tene daggers is the one found in the thames with the hilt of small connected rings, it is on display in the British museum so there should be pics of it around. Many of the anthros are just daggers though, even the largers ones would fall somewhere between sword and dagger size. The Iberian daggers can be decorated up pretty fancy and are up there in complexity as far as construction.

I've attached another pic of a couple Hallstatt daggers, one is suppost to be the prince of Hochdorf's. I would assume the gold clad one since his shoes had gold foil. Not sure about the other one though...

[Matthew Kelty]

[Folkert van Wijk]

In the meantime I have found "more" Celtic La Tene knifes that appear to be more like fithing knifes.
And there fore would like to see if I can re-open this debate....

Offcourse many Celtic swords and spears have bin found but probably mostly from rich graves and ritual depots created by Celtic enemies being proud of there fictory's? And therefore offering the most elaborate weapons that would please there Gods... The most common (fighting) knifes would simply be put to use again by it's new owner or something...

The more common ironage men that couldn't afford such luxurious weaponry would only have a spear and or a fighting knife making him a light "infantry trooper"... Nothing you would really by proud of killing...

This men wouldn't also have bin buried in a rich grave with grave goods and therefore nowadays would not be found.
And so wouldn't be able to tell us the "story" of the poor commoners that where fithing there enemys with knifes...

Am I making sens???

The knifes I found so far are by it's shape i quess use fore slassing like a falcata and or modern kukri...
See for your self and tell my what you think. I think it would be nice to see more of this stuff and maybe a replica somewhere..

http://www.ashokaarts.com/ancient/an-6.htm

[Shane Allee]

Hey Folkert,

It has taken a bit to get back to this topic, but I finally sit down and go through my thoughts and try to type them out. The first weapon pictured there is a pretty interesting style that I've had some thoughts about for awhile now. Hope to pick one up if I can get the chance from ebay for a study piece, they are coming fairly regularly from the Balkan area. There may be regional names for these, but I have yet to find a name for this specific type. They seem to be more commonly Thracian in origin the best I can tell, however with the intermixing of goods it can get difficult to classify graves as specifically celtic or thracian in these areas. Most of the time they seem to feature the "T" type of back and lack the double curve along the cutting edge. These two characteristics pretty much separate them from the falcata. They share a bit more in common with the machaira in the "T" type of back, but still lack the double curve along the cutting edge. We also see this with the rhomphia as well. So it is in the family, but I think a specific type adapted most likely by the thracians. Also seems to make since that this might also be somewhat of the forerunner of the dacian Falx we start seeing a bit later.

As far as the La Tene knives go, I still think it is very hard to tell the intended function of these. All we really have to go on in many cases is their association with other grave goods like Nate pointed out. The one thing that holds me back somewhat on these being carried either on the battlefield or even more of an everyday basis is that I would image that we would have more sheaths or scabbards for them than we really do. We do have some, but for the most part I don't think they are really even finding too much that would even indicate a simple leather sheath with these. There may be more found then I realized, but they just seem to be more around the home/work area items.

Shane

[Nathan Robinson]

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

[Folkert van Wijk]

First of all: Seesons greetings to all, and I do hope every body "survived" Christmas without gaining to much extra weight.

I resently discovered this archeological auction/shop/store like site with some Celtic knifes that I wanted to ad to this thread.
And wanted to know your opinion...
They do look a bid diffent then what I have seen before, these appear pretty slim.

http://www.stormbroek.com/print.php?tbl=Prehi...c&pg=2
http://www.stormbroek.com/print.php?tbl=Prehi...c&pg=1

Folkert

[Shane Allee]

I would have to say buyer beware. StormBroek sells regularly on ebay, but I don't tend to pay much attention to an auction after I see the name. They sell some nice looking antiques, but not all seem to be as dated. Some spears sold as celtic featured a square median ridge, something that I have only ever seen possitively identified on antique african spears of a much much later date. That is just one example of some of the questionable auctions I have noticed in the last couple years from them. The knives listed don't honestly look anything like the celtic la tene stuff, so it would take a some very good solid research before I would consider it safe to say they are such.

Shane

[Folkert van Wijk]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

Here's some interesting knives dating to the Hallstatt period (source [url]http://www2.rgzm.de/tomba1/home/frames.htm [/url]):

[Peter Johnsson]

Hey Jeroen!

The last knife/short sword you posted, the krooked one from Slovenija, is of a type that long have had a special interest to me.
I always thought those were of Italian type (but an area of use including the balkans seems very natural, of course).
Do you, or any one else know more about that particular type?
I have some (not too detailed) copies of other blades of this type (can´t post them, sorry. My scanner is not in the right mood...). They are of Etruscan contex and look a bit like very drawn out and narrow Kukri knives. Cross section is a sturdy triangular wedge (makes for a good strong point as well...). One is about 55-60 cm in the blade, most seem to have been shorter (?).
I have long entertained thoughts of making such a short sword, but never got round to actually do it (...story of my life).

The one you posted Jeroen seems to have an all bronze hilt. Interesting!
Thanks for posting these.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Paul Mullins]

Nate something you might want to consider on the finish of these knives. Since they were more than likely utility knives used for daily chores, eating, cutting rope, skinning animals the finish would not necessarily be as the same standards as a sword for instance.

However I agree that they would have probably been finished to a higher degree than the repro shown.

[Steve L.]

A little bit late, but....(one of my prefered weapons of the hallstatt culture )

I´m sitting here at one of my projects: The reconstruction of an (broadbladed) hallstatt dagger.

I´ve seen enough originals of hallstatt weapons - some in particularly good preservation. The sword- or daggerblades, the lances and spears - all was high grade grinded and polished (i guess sometimes near mirror-like).

Rough surfaces boost the danger for rust!

Facts about hallstatt dagger:

- The dagger was the sign of the free high class member of the westhallstatt society - in easthallstatt region the axe.
- Only a little group is usable as weapon (some construction is very...fragile)!
- No one looks like the other - but in the graves of Hallstatt are some pieces of the same artisan.
- There´s no grave with sword (Mindelheim, Gündlingen,...) and dagger. There was a clear "cut" between HA C2/ HA D1. (Cultural change?)
- The anthropological checked skeletons with dagger are older then 35 years. There´s one grave with dagger and boy - and with an adult man (over 35). Younger = no dagger. (But sometimes a Knife!)

[Steve L.]

My first reconstruction of an organic hilted (elmtree, antler) hallstatt dagger (typical for south germany/ north switzerland).

Now i´ve to polish and to sharp it....

[Danny Grigg]

Steve

That is a trully awesome dagger.

What are the stats / dimensions?

Thanks

Danny

[Geoff Wood]

[Steve L.]

Length: 36cm (9,58cm hilt without heft and pommel)
Width (broadest blade): 4,65cm
Width (blade, at heft): 4,35cm
Thickness (blade, at heft): 7,8mm
Thickness (blade, middle): 7,1mm
Thickness (1cm to the point): 3,8mm

Balance point: 3,35cm from the heft

Weigth: 200 gramms

The daggers of this hallstatt zone was inspired by celtiberian daggers (and also trading goods from there). But between them and the roman pugio are over 350 years i guess (i´m not familiar with roman weapon history) with an break in that design!

[Danny Grigg]

Steve

Is this a replica of any particular existing dagger? If so have you got a pic of the original?

Perhaps it is based on a dagger similar to the one Jeroen posted on the first page:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/tgrb/leger_museum_de...140024.jpg

or perhaps on the ones in the pic attached?

Thanks

Danny

[Steve L.]

Nope - it´s a free reco, but bloody hard in style of the westhallstatt culture. Every hallstatt dagger was unique - also my own!

But i can make recos of originals too....