Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Brigandine with a lance rest? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Thu 14 Oct, 2021 3:09 am    Post subject: Brigandine with a lance rest?         Reply with quote

I have seen the below drawing of a lance rest equipped brigandine (from Handbuch der Waffenkunde by Wendelin Boeheim as it turns out) floating around the internet for a long while but never bothered to track it down because I figured this thing could not possibly be real since any attempt to actually use the lance rest for it's intended purpose would surely rip the brigandine apart. Recently, however, I came across the below photo and discovered that not only was this thing for real, it originally came with a matching peaked/brimmed celata/sallet. Originally this kit belonged to one Jakob von Ems, a Landsknecht Oberst who was shot while assaulting Spanish field fortifications at Ravenna in 1512 at the head of 5000 Landsknechts in French service who had defied Maximilian I's famous recall order. These were apparently the same bunch of Quislings that were later wiped out by Frundsberg's loyalist Landsknechts at Pavia in 1525 (surprisingly, even in the 16th century, patriotism sometimes won out over mercenary greed). At some point this helmet/brigandine found their way into the Royal Austrian Historic Arms collection. Does anybody know where this helmet and brigandine are located now? Hopefully they were not burned up during a WWII air raid ...





 Attachment: 99.21 KB
Jakob_von_Ems_brigandine_by_Wendelin_Boeheim.jpg


 Attachment: 53.76 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Zimmermann





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri 15 Oct, 2021 6:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there,

well, it says here, that this guy gave the armour of Jakob von Ems and his portrait to Archduke Ferdinand II for his gallery at Ambras:

https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz57173.html

Also, according to this entry the brigandine (and the other suits of armour gifted by Jakob Hannibal) are now either in the Neue Hofburg (that is the HJRK) or the Kunsthistorisches Museum.

In Boeheim's Handbuch there is also a view of the back:

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/boeheim1890/0120

It is listed in Boeheim's guide from 1889 on p. 36, n 130:

https://archive.org/details/Waffen-sammlung/page/n39/mode/1up?q=embs

I don't have access to the 1936 catalogue right now, but it's not in Thomas' catalague of 1976. I also cannot find it in the concordance.

Can't find it in the database of the KHM, but will have a mosey round the 1936 catalogue and report back.

Best,

- Michael
View user's profile Send private message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Fri 15 Oct, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Zimmermann wrote:
Hi there,

well, it says here, that this guy gave the armour of Jakob von Ems and his portrait to Archduke Ferdinand II for his gallery at Ambras:

https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz57173.html

Also, according to this entry the brigandine (and the other suits of armour gifted by Jakob Hannibal) are now either in the Neue Hofburg (that is the HJRK) or the Kunsthistorisches Museum.

In Boeheim's Handbuch there is also a view of the back:

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/boeheim1890/0120

It is listed in Boeheim's guide from 1889 on p. 36, n 130:

https://archive.org/details/Waffen-sammlung/page/n39/mode/1up?q=embs

I don't have access to the 1936 catalogue right now, but it's not in Thomas' catalague of 1976. I also cannot find it in the concordance.

Can't find it in the database of the KHM, but will have a mosey round the 1936 catalogue and report back.

Best,


The KHM catalogue is here:

https://www.khm.at/objektdb/?id=11227&L=0&view=0&facet_date=-4500%3B2018&sort=score%3Adesc

I wasn't able to find anything there but then the Austrians sometimes tag things in weird ways that makes stuff hard to find. I'll go through my photos from Schloss Ambras, I really want to get a good look at that helmet.


Last edited by Kristjan Runarsson on Fri 15 Oct, 2021 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Zimmermann





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri 15 Oct, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, that's what I meant by 'KHM database'. I can't find anything under his name (all spellings I'm aware of), neither is there anything to be found by searching for 'Sturmhaube', 'Brigantine' or 'Korazin'. Also, 'Panzer', 'Harnisch'.

Where did you find the photo? Perhaps, that would give you a clue as to the last date it definitely was part of the collection at least.

- Michael
View user's profile Send private message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct, 2021 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Zimmermann wrote:
Yes, that's what I meant by 'KHM database'. I can't find anything under his name (all spellings I'm aware of), neither is there anything to be found by searching for 'Sturmhaube', 'Brigantine' or 'Korazin'. Also, 'Panzer', 'Harnisch'.

Where did you find the photo? Perhaps, that would give you a clue as to the last date it definitely was part of the collection at least.


I found it on Pinterest where it had been pinned from some Russian social networking website that turned out to be a complete dead end. I only picked up on it because I'm trying to convert a transitional sallet into a peaked sallet and that helmet caught my interest. Then it hit me that the brigandine was actual proof of that drawing in Wendelin Boheim's book being for real. The reason I want to get a closer look at the helmet is that it seems to retain a period velvet helmet cover. This kit seems to have been kept at the Austrian Artillery/Army Museum at one point before WWII during which the museum was gutted by Allied bombers which is why I wondered if this harness had gone up in smoke.



 Attachment: 743.58 KB
Screenshot 2021-10-16 at 13.53.42.png

View user's profile Send private message
Michael Zimmermann





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat 23 Oct, 2021 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, I have the 1936 catalogue in hand now: Both the brigandine and the Sturmhaube are there at the time, listed under the inventory number A 190.
The short entry mentions that there are armourers' marks (presumably on the helmet), which is why it is tentatively said to be of Florentine manufacture. I have no idea how reliable these attributions are in this period, so do take it with a large pinch of salt.

As to the velvet cover: interesting, though I do believe there are period velvet remnants on a sallet(?) in Munich. In the absence of better photographs of the Sturmhaube, which seems to be either missing or relegated to deep storage at the HJRK, this might be a more promising lead for you to pursue.

Best,

- Michael
View user's profile Send private message
Clifford Rogers





Joined: 11 Mar 2012

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brigandines with lance rests were, based on textual evidence, not uncommon in the late c15; they were probably for use with a light lance (lancegay) rather than a heavy lance.
Clifford J. Rogers
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Brigandine with a lance rest?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2021 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum