Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Irish swordDIY Project Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 09 Jul, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Irish sword         Reply with quote

The open ring pommel or Irish sword as we also call it. My question is what type of blade has it ?? A XIX only or can it have a XVIIIa blade, I ask because this is a sword project i would like to work on and thinking of using the Hanwei /Tinker bastard with fuller for this project this blade is a XVIIIa I think. Any help would be great ,thanks.
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,138

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 4:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Search and ye shall find info: Happy

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5494
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5844
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18705

There are more threads but some are old and the pics they linked to are long since gone.

Seems a Type XIX blade was fairly common. There is one example with a diamond section as well. Don't know if I've seen any fullered XVIIIas.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank's Chad this info you gave me did help ,where XIX were most common any blade could be used ,as Owen Fentimen said " Irish swords are unique by there guards and pommels not there blades"also from what I read If popularity is an indicator of martial effectiveness, Type XVIII must have proven itself very effective indeed. According to Oakeshott, Type XVIII and its subtypes were "the most widely used swords between c. 1410 and 1510 all over Europe". So as it was around this time that Irish swords were assembled ( i use the word assembled because as far as i know they did not forge there own blades) in Ireland.So I will use the XVIIIa blade with fuller to assemble my own,i have the pommel, now I need only to get or make an "S" guard if there is a sword smith near Chicago that could help me that would be great.
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,138

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you're comfortable with that extensive justification, then go for it. Happy

Have you thought about the unfullered bastard sword blade? A number of repros use a diamond section blade of Type XVIII form. And there is one surviving example of hand and a half proportions that appears to have a diamond section blade with no fuller. Using the unfullered blade would take you from a justification and a maybe-plausible situation to a configuration we know existed historically.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Think I will go with the unfullered bastard blade XVIIIa I'm going to go to KOA next week and look at both blades side by side first.When i am finished I will post some pics here.
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My Irish bastard still a work in progress no work of art LOL but its all mine.


 Attachment: 62.96 KB
DSCN0292.JPG


 Attachment: 55.19 KB
DSCN0296.JPG


 Attachment: 64.92 KB
DSCN0299.JPG


Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Josh MacNeil




Location: Massachusetts, USA
Joined: 23 Jul 2008

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is coming along very nicely. Happy Is the grip wire wrapped?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,172

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats James on a fine looking sword, be sure to keep us updated on any future work
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Scott S.




Location: Central North Carolina
Joined: 28 May 2009
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like that a whole lot!

Everything looks nicely proportioned and belongs together which seems to be a feat even the mid-range production sword companies don't always get right (in my amateur opinion.) Looking forward to seeing it after the final touches have been made.
View user's profile Send private message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys I like it so far I have a little more work to go on the guard and have to leather wrap it the grip ,josh that is cord on the grip which will be covered with leather next , going to go with black leather for this one to keep with a dark looking hilt over all. I will have more photos up later today .
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the new grip but the guard is not finished yet just a few more final touches to do on it.
Here are the specs : Blade Tinker/Hanwei bastard XVIIIa , pommel from Albion moat sale ,guard is stock which forged into a slight "s" and blued the guard and pommel and visible tang, hot penned.
Over all 41 1/2".
Width of blade 1 1/2".
Blade 33''.
Guard width 8 1/2''
Grip 5 3/4".
Hilt overall 8".
Weight 2 lb
P.O.B. 6'' from guard.
C.O.P. 23'' from guard



 Attachment: 62.12 KB
DSCN0007.JPG
Grip

 Attachment: 48.77 KB
RSCN0010.JPG
new grip

 Attachment: 58.37 KB
RSCN0011.JPG
new grip

 Attachment: 62.14 KB
DSCN0008.JPG
new grip

 Attachment: 62.8 KB
DSCN0009.JPG


 Attachment: 49.9 KB
DSCN0016.JPG


Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.


Last edited by James Cunniffe on Mon 19 Jul, 2010 6:46 pm; edited 3 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Patrick O'Brien




Location: Argentina
Joined: 13 May 2009
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice Job, James. I am attaching a picture of a ring pommel sword in the Ulster Museum, Belfast. Blade seems to Oakeshott XVIII - fullered (?). Looks quite similar to your project. I wish I had more information on this particular sword; I couldn't find more information on the web. Slán.


 Attachment: 40.62 KB
Belfast_Museum.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 17 Jul, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel
Thank you very much for sharing the photo of the Irish sword from the Ulster museum I do appreciate it a lot. I feel that I am on the right path with my project now,thanks again.

Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,138

PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Patrick O'Brien wrote:
Nice Job, James. I am attaching a picture of a ring pommel sword in the Ulster Museum, Belfast. Blade seems to Oakeshott XVIII - fullered (?). Looks quite similar to your project. I wish I had more information on this particular sword; I couldn't find more information on the web. Slán.


Do you have any more detailed pictures of that sword?

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Feb 2006

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Patrick O'Brien wrote:
Nice Job, James. I am attaching a picture of a ring pommel sword in the Ulster Museum, Belfast. Blade seems to Oakeshott XVIII - fullered (?). Looks quite similar to your project. I wish I had more information on this particular sword; I couldn't find more information on the web. Slán.


Has anyone found any more info on this sword?



 Attachment: 40.62 KB
Belfast_Museum.jpg


Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
What information do you want on that sword?
I was there about a year ago to study some Viking era swords... I did get sidetracked a few times with other pieces, including that sword, I examined it for a bit, and handled it briefly.
I didn't take particularly detailed notes on it as I was not there to study that type. Also, I legally cannot post photos of the sword, so the best I can do is describe my impressions of it. I will write all I can recollect.

The sword is in a very pristine condition, it was found by a farmer in a field. The blade was most likely not broken until the farmer hit it with his equipment. It is unfortunate, however it would probably still be siting in the ground had he not hit it.
The blade is very lightly hollow-ground, if I recall. There are multiple nicks along the blade consistent with a well used sword.
Near either end of the tang there are grip remnants. At the top (near the pommel) there is remaining wire, and wood. On the bottom (near the blade) there is a bit of wood and some wire. The grip would have been quite thin originally. On the cross there are remnants of what appeared to be a chappe. The guard is formed in an S-shape, similar to this one by A&A. However, the guard does not have the beveled edges seen on that sword guard. The blade was an Oakeshott XVIIIb.

Cheers!

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Belfast. Blade seems to Oakeshott XVIII - fullered (?).


It is not fullered, it is of diamond cross section and is lightly hollow-ground.

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Feb 2006

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
Quote:
Belfast. Blade seems to Oakeshott XVIII - fullered (?).


It is not fullered, it is of diamond cross section and is lightly hollow-ground.


Wow Hadrian, I really appreciate your response, I never thought someone who actually handled the sword would respond. Your info was extremely helpful to me. I had thought that the only evidence for diamond section swords were in artwork but this proves it through archeology. Do you know the year it was found and if they have a name for the find? What about an estimate of the length overall and of the blade and guard? Are there any sketch's that you know of?
And since you were there what about the ring hilt to the left could I be so fortunate that you have some info on that one?

Thanks

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Fri 24 Dec, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
It was a stray find, by a farmer. I do not recall the year. My apologies. I did not measure the sword, so it is pure estimation based on what I remember... I would hazard somewhere around 120cm overall, with a blade around 92-95cm.

Yes, I did handle the other one to the left in that photo, very briefly. I do have several photos (again I apologize for not being able to post them), and a few recollections. I do not recall though where or when it was found.
The cross was S shaped and was quite thin near the ends, whereas the middle of the guard is fairly thick. The guard has very long langets, I'd hazard nearly 9cm! The blade is in quite poor condition. The tip is gone. The blade has 5 thin fullers, the outer most are only about 13-15 cm long. The inner three are longer... If I recall around 25 cm (the blade is quite pitted, and it is difficult to tell in my photos where they end, so this is a guess based purely on what I remember). The blade has a small latten cross inlaid on one side of the blade. There are no grip remnants remaining, the tang was quite narrow. The blade width is approximately 3.5-4.0 cm. The overall length originally is somewhat hard to guess as the blade is missing the end. Based on other swords of similar type, and the swords proportions I'd say it would be around 95-100cm.
I am sorry I cannot be of more help with this one.

Cheers!

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian it is great that you got a chance to handle this sword to say the least I am very jealous .I just came back from Ireland after being there for the past 3 months I did not get a chance to get to Belfast to view this sword as I did want to. I did email them for more info but got no reply so may be you can tell me from my photos is my sword a good likeness of the Belfast sword the S guard I'm most curious about.Thanks
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.


Last edited by James Cunniffe on Sat 01 Jan, 2011 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Irish swordDIY Project
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum