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Adam R
Location: Vale of Belvoir, UK Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 39
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 Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2004 2:12 am Post subject: Foot Armour, 15th C |
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Hi
I was wondering about 15th C foot armour, how common were plate sabatons versus maille ones? Was there a trend from one to the other as the century wore on? Or a preference for one when fighting on foot and the other (plate) on horseback?
Nathan, In your essay on here you say that Italian armours were more likely to use maille foot harness... is that time sensitive etc? Where did that info come from?
Thanks in advance for all your thought.
Adam
Adam Roylance
KDF Nottingham
www.nottinghamsword.co.uk
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Plate sabatons date back to the mid late 14th century and were far more common than maille ones ( on the maille sabatons the maille was attached to the lower edge (ankle) of the greave and ended in a steel/iron toe cap) . The maille ones were produced as the article said on the Italian market but do not seem to have been specific to foot armours but rather were to be found on both . Maille sabatons become increasingly rare as the 15th century became the 16th and pretty much disapeared after the first quarter of the 16th century .
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Thu 12 Aug, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Some of the plate sabatons were clearly intended for use on horseback only. The longer the toe, the less practical it was to try to walk in them, let alone fight. I have a pair of plate sabatons whose toes are only about three inches longer than my foot, but even at this length it's hard to avoid tripping. Some were much longer than this.
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Adam R
Location: Vale of Belvoir, UK Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri 13 Aug, 2004 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Thanks both, Steve, I think you'll fing plenty of the very fasionable pointy sabatons had removable end pieces for use off the horse... sorry, cant remember the source of this info!
| Steve Fabert wrote: | | Some of the plate sabatons were clearly intended for use on horseback only. The longer the toe, the less practical it was to try to walk in them, let alone fight. I have a pair of plate sabatons whose toes are only about three inches longer than my foot, but even at this length it's hard to avoid tripping. Some were much longer than this. |
Adam Roylance
KDF Nottingham
www.nottinghamsword.co.uk
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David Quivey
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| Posted: Fri 13 Aug, 2004 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen plenty of the "pointy toe" type sabaton - on every single one the extra long pointed cap was removable.
Now, I haven't done much in the way of real research on sabatons, but I can say that for the most part, sabatons of plate seemed to be for the most part a Northern European trend - on foot at least. I have no clue why, but full suits from Milan and etc, even up the 16th cen seemed to prefer leather boots, or some sort of covered maille (like the velvet covered sabatons on the Met Museum's Italian suit w/ brigadine).
In my (very) limited research, I've only seen one example of plate sabaton, and that was for mounted use, by Tomaso Missaglia (1452) - an un-articulated sabaton that just straped to the boot for use in the sadle - it was obviously made for removal when fighting on foot.
Perhaps the Italians just prefered to not to have the extra weight on their feet when moving about (makes a heck of a lot of sense to me)
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 16 Aug, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Hello Folks,
It would appear that the trend in Italy during the fifteenth century was for mail sabatons,or even just leather shoes / boots (according to some period illustrations ),whereas elsewhere in Europe the requirement was for plate.If I recall correctly, there are nine funeral effigies and brasses in England of the period which show Italianate armour , and all of them have plate sabatons ! But ,Italian plate sabatons of this period are nevertheless extremely rare,there is not a single pair amongst all the armour preserved at the sanctuary of the S.Maria in Mantova for instance .
Also the sabaton in italy (or at least those made for export ),never reached the absurd lengths of their German counterparts,so they were not usually made with the detachable toes caps.
I am about to start work on a replica of the 'Avant 'armour ,which will of course have mail sabatons as per the original,but my original idea was to construct merely a copy as may have been worn in England,and this would then have had plate sabatons copied after the pair on armour no.20 in the wallace Collection in London.
Regards,
Russ
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !
http://www.living-history.no
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Jeff Johnson
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| Posted: Tue 17 Aug, 2004 9:34 am Post subject: |
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As someone who has an "Avant" suit, I've pondered this question, & have a theory: Perhaps the mail sabatons are not for those who fight on foot, but for horsemen whos feet were protected by an armored stirrup cup.
If armored stirrup-cups were used, it'd be natural for all English to have better armored feet. Where In Italy, combat by fully-armored men in plate didn't die out as early as it did in England, so the armor wouldn't need the better armored feet.
Make sense?
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Jeff,
An interesting theory.However,my own is that sabatons were just not thought to be worth the trouble,especially when on horseback.My own experience being that no matter how well made ,sabatons do impede movement a little bit.I am not a horseman,but I believe that many people have some difficulties when wearing the bottom of the leg harness on horse back,and several of Dürers drawings picture mounted knights without any lower leg armour at all ! Certainly in Italy many armours continued to be made without sabatons well into the middle of the sixteenth century,most had greaves that were cut off at the ankle, but of course by this time the bucket type stirrups were quite common , I am not sure about the early or middle fifteenth century though ? IMO,they were just too much of an embuggerance either on horse back or on foot!
As a slight aside,your 'Avant' harness,what are the gauntlets like on this please? My reason for asking is that there is a little uncertainty regarding the accurracy of the left gauntlet made by Bartel in the mid 1930's. I am about to start work on a replica of this harness and during research for this project it has led me to wonder about that left gauntlet a little more closely.Many people assume (myself included until quite recently !),that the left gauntlet should have the cuff made in a single piece ,and not be simply a mirror of the right gauntlet as Bartel has made it.However,this armour is very early 1440-1445, and really speaking the asymmetrical gauntlets do not come into fashion until later on in the century, so perhaps Bartel got it right after all ? These are after all still hourglass gauntlets ! All the gauntlets preserved at the sanctuary of the S.Maria in Mantova are of the asymmetrical variety,but they are all later examples 1460 -70 .I would be interested to know your (and everybody elses !  ),thoughts on this please.
Many thanks,
regards as ever,
Russ
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !
http://www.living-history.no
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Adam R wrote: | | Thanks both, Steve, I think you'll fing plenty of the very fasionable pointy sabatons had removable end pieces for use off the horse... sorry, cant remember the source of this info! |
I am familiar with the 'convertible' sabatons attributed to German smiths, like the ones reproduced here: http://www.varmouries.com/vdoubl.html
Removal of the false toes makes these sabatons potentially usable for foot combat, while the extended toes clearly are not suitable at all for anything except horseback use.
The pair I recently acquired has intermediate length toe pieces, more similar to what I have seen in illustrations from the mid 15th Century, a type that show no sign of being similarly 'convertible'. You can see them at http://us.armouronline.com/content/view/obrazek/31679
My observation is that it requires only a very short extension of the toe beyond what the user is accustomed to wear in civilian attire to produce constant stubbing of the toes. Perhaps the men who wore pointed sabatons had spent a lifetime wearing soft poulaines with long pointed toes, and so had acquired some skill in maneuvering with this unwieldy form of footwear.
Tomb effigies may show us nothing more than the ceremonial armor commonly used at the time of the wearer's death, rather than illustrating combat equipment. My personal bias is to rely more on illustrations of men in combat plus experiment with modern equipment to try to determine what was likely to have been worn in a real battle. The English illustrations that I have seen from the 15th Century seem to regularly place plate sabatons on men who are wearing plate on their legs and arms, whether they are fighting on horseback or not. Their footwear seems longer than what I would comfortably wear, but that is true whether they are shown with leather shoes or sabatons.
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Not only the length of the toe caps, do not forget the straps underneath the sabaton, as well as the possible steel plates or straps under the toes and the heel of the sabaton.They all combine ,in my opinion,to make this a pretty useless , uncomfortable, unecessary and potentially hazardous piece of equipment. They are difficult to walk in properly.I would personally prefer not to wear them either on foot or on horseback.
Regards,
Russ
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !
http://www.living-history.no
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Jeff Johnson
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| Posted: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Thomas wrote: |
As a slight aside,your 'Avant' harness,what are the gauntlets like on this please? My reason for asking is that there is a little uncertainty regarding the accurracy of the left gauntlet made by Bartel in the mid 1930's. I am about to start work on a replica of this harness and during research for this project it has led me to wonder about that left gauntlet a little more closely.Many people assume (myself included until quite recently !),that the left gauntlet should have the cuff made in a single piece ,and not be simply a mirror of the right gauntlet as Bartel has made it.However,this armour is very early 1440-1445, and really speaking the asymmetrical gauntlets do not come into fashion until later on in the century, so perhaps Bartel got it right after all ? These are after all still hourglass gauntlets ! All the gauntlets preserved at the sanctuary of the S.Maria in Mantova are of the asymmetrical variety,but they are all later examples 1460 -70 .I would be interested to know your (and everybody elses ! ),thoughts on this please.
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I can't buy the argument that the gauntlets ought be symmetrical when the rest of the arm defenses are not. This is a lance-wielder's armor. Just look at the placement of all of the reenforces. So, I had the left gauntlet made as you also seem to believe it should be - with a single, longer metacarpal plate - as typified by the gauntlet depicted on pg 109 of A&AOTMK. The cuff is a bit shorter and less pointed though- rather like a transition between or amalgam of that gauntlet and the Avant left gauntlet. Plus, it has scales on the fingers of the glove, and the gauntlet cuff is a heavier gauge and not rolled. All of this makes it beefier and more able to take a lance-strike from the left.
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 20 Aug, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that Jeff.
However,we cannot be certain that the harness wasn't assembled out of pieces from several harnesses held in the armoury at Churburg,possibly it was, though done in antiquity. There are perhaps ten different sets of armourers stamps on this harness,though this in itself is not so unusual on Milanese armour of the period.We certainly know that Count Trapp swapped the helmets over when he sold the harness to Hearst in August 1934.Swapping an armet for the beautiful barbuta (no.58 in the Churburg catalogue). The ' original ' armet is now in the Royal Armouries,Leeds (IV.498).
However,as far as the gauntlets go,if the date now ascribed to this harness ( ca.1440-1445),by Mann, Scalini, Boccia, Eaves etc is correct,then these arms would be of the very latest fashion,whereas the gauntlets on the other hand (Ouch,no pun intended !  ), would really be something of a left over from the previous century,ie hourglass gauntlets.Off the top of my head I know of no other pair of gauntlets quite like these in existance ? These gauntlets are after all very early,or late ,whichever way one wants to look at it ! As you say,I used to think ,along with others,that Bartel had simply got it wrong in copying the right gauntlet,but now I am not so certain.For that reason I will be making both types to go with the replica 
Another thing that is at least doubtful,are the finger lames on the gauntlets. According to Robert Woosnam -Savage, former keeper of arms and armour at Kelvingrove, it is "possible" that they were present,no more. Again given the probable date of the gauntlets these too may be doubtful.Evidently,no trace of their ever having been present is visible now.
I will be going over next month to have a look at the harness ,so hopefully I may get some more information on this beautiful armour. I will let you know if I find anything interesting.
Thankyou for the information on the gauntlets on your harness Jeff. I would love to see a picture of it ,especially the gauntlets if that were possible please ? I have heard about it ,but never seen it.,and I just love Milanese armour 
Many thanks,
regards,
Russ
PS. My apologies for rudely hijacking the original thread !
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !
http://www.living-history.no
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Jeff Johnson
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| Posted: Sat 21 Aug, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I also apologize for the hijacking, but we're at least staying in the spirit of the thread. Here are some pics that give a better look at the gaunts:
http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/codnor/mtt28.jpg
http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/codnor/geoff9.jpg
It's almost certain that there was mix & match going on, but the components of this harness seem consistent in typifying the Milanese style of the period. The style on the gaunts isn't TOO early - look at the mild points on the cuffs - that's keeping in style/aesthetics with the mild points on the faulds and placat. I'd say that if my gaunts are made reasonably close to the originals, the finger-scales are almost a necessity - look at how exposed the fingers would be without them, eh? You may notice that like the left, my right gaunt is not rolled at the cuff. Like most of the components, it is of mild steel and of a thicker gauge than the original. One of these years, I'll get that corrected.
Regarding the helm - I had the probable correct armet you mentioned in the RA replicated. Here's a comparison if mine and the original:
http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/kit15/Compare2.jpg
It's in spring-steel and also has a (recreation) wrapper and rondel (missing from the original) and a crest-holder:
http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/kit15/armetside.jpg
And I've added a mail fringe. It's butted, but 1/4" riveted is a bear to work with and there's only one man I trust for the job:
http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/kit15/neck.JPG
I'll be in the UK in November and have an invitation to take a look at the Avant as well. I'm hoping that the curator's thesis on the armor is published soon.
Back semi-on-topic: I still need to get the mail sabatons attached, but haven't been overly successful in finding a cordwainer to make the shoes like I want to attach the sabatons to. There is a description of the proper shoes in "How a man schalle be armed to fight on foot", but interpretation & experimentation has been difficult. Any suggestions?.
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 21 Aug, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks for those Jeff.
That really is a stunning harness ! Is it all by Robert MacPherson ?It is certainly gorgeous and must be a delight to own.What is the approximate weight of it please ? The real harness weighs in at just on 60lbs,but that is without tassets ,front and rear,one gardbrace and one gauntlet as well ,and of course it has a barbuta too,not an armet. That said, the centre of the fauld on the original is 4mm thick  so it is pretty chunky !
I have been looking at this harness for years now and have only just noticed that the upper edge on the right couter is actually rolled,I always thought that it was a reflection of the light on a thick edge like that on the fauld,but it is not.I'll make certain that I correct that when I make the replica !
I will also make a copy of the armet as well as the barbuta,though I will make the barbuta first as this is my alltime favourite helmet  I cannot wait to start raising it.........................christmas will come early
As regards the gauntlets ,I agree that they are not too early,they are after all not quite hourglass shape ,but neither are they the elongated more pointed shape of the 1460's and onwards,and my feeling is that the date ascribed to the overall harness is also probably correct for these gauntlets,and the nearest thing to them that I know of are the slightly earlier pair ,also in Churburg and now on harness no. 18.These are generally similar in style ,but do not have the extra plate over the fingers,nor the articulation at the knuckle ,therefore they do have reinforced fingers (studs riveted onto leather and plate fingetips).Wheras with the gauntlets on the 'Avant' ,only the very tips of the fingers might be exposed.However ,what is interesting with this pair (no.18),is that they are also symmetrical,the asymmetrical cuffs have not appeared yet.
It is a pity that we will not be in Glasgow at the same time ,it would be a pleasure to go over the harness with you. Unfortunately,I doubt that any new work on the harness will be published for a while ,I know that Toby wants to do it ,but is up to his neck with the rebuilding of the museum, reorganising the galleries and also finishing off his Phd.So I think that we will have to wait for that one just a little while longer 
Thanks for the input Jeff and again for showing us the pictures of your wonderful harness.
Regards as ever,
Russ
Sorry ,almost forgot....Have you tried Mark Beaby at the craftcourt at the Royal Armouries in Leeds for the shoes ? He has an excellent reputation for quality and authenticity.I would think that he is definately worth a try.
Bjarni's Boots,
The Craft Court,
Royal Armouries Museum,
Leeds,
LS10 1LT,
UK.
Email: info@bjarnisboots.co.uk
Website: http://www.bjarnisboots.co.uk
Hope this helps.
R.
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !
http://www.living-history.no
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Sun 22 Aug, 2004 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Fabert wrote: | | Some of the plate sabatons were clearly intended for use on horseback only. The longer the toe, the less practical it was to try to walk in them, let alone fight. I have a pair of plate sabatons whose toes are only about three inches longer than my foot, but even at this length it's hard to avoid tripping. Some were much longer than this. |
Hi Steve,
You really shouldn't be having this problem with three inch pointed sabatons. Are you wearing a similarly shaped shoe beneath them? Otherwise, there's nothing holding the toe up and the tendency will be for it to slope slightly down, which makes it likely to foul up on grass or soil.
Here's a pic of mine: 
Cheers,
Christian
PS. Jeff - thanks for posting your armour pics. That's an outstanding harness.
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Sun 22 Aug, 2004 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
You really shouldn't be having this problem with three inch pointed sabatons. Are you wearing a similarly shaped shoe beneath them? Otherwise, there's nothing holding the toe up and the tendency will be for it to slope slightly down, which makes it likely to foul up on grass or soil. |
You may be correct. When I first tried the new sabatons on I was wearing ordinary round-toed shoes, which did nothing to hold the metal toes up. Since then I have obtained a pair of poulaines with stiff toes that match the sabatons. I may still need a bit of practice with the poulaines, but it does appear that once they can be worn efficiently I will also be able to wear the sabatons over them with no greater tendency to trip than I would have with the poulaines alone.
Your sabatons look to be especially well finished. I assume they were tailored to the dimensions of your feet? Mine are strictly off the shelf. The main virtue of the ones I bought was their low cost. Even though I paid only $130US for mine, they are reasonably well made and quite sturdy. They were my first purchase from Armouronline.com, and I will not hesitate to buy more from them.
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Sun 22 Aug, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again Steve,
Yes, these are custom fitted. I had to make a cast of my entire leg so that the sabaton, and the high cut leg harnesses, all fit properly. The harness was done by Christian Flecther, just in time to appear in my first book, Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship. Here's the whole harness, from a recent picture:
Take care,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Adam R
Location: Vale of Belvoir, UK Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Mon 23 Aug, 2004 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi Russ and Jeff, hi-jack away, my question was answered well enough already.
Hey Christian, those besagews, do they impede your arm movement at all, like your range in halfsword for example?
Adam Roylance
KDF Nottingham
www.nottinghamsword.co.uk
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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