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F. Carl Holz
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 Posted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: choosing a rapier/supplier... |
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Recently I decided start in on learning rapier. Up until now I had only gone so far as longsword and a little sword and buckler, so the shift calls for a change in equipment. I'm not yet willing to commit an especially large amount of money to it, but I want something that works.
For these reasons I picked the Hanwei practical cup-hilt; I have references on Spanish as well as Italian rapier I hope to utilize and, truth be told, I think it looks good and it comes with a fitted scabbard, something I haven't seen on other rapier trainers.
So, I have a two part question:
1. Is this a practical choice as a starter? I know that there are better swords out there, but I don't want to have to stomach a bill much more than $200, and I am unaware of many other options.
2. What supplier should I go through/is there a difference? The three I had considered were: therion arms, Kult of Athena, or Hanwei shop (who is supposed to be the official hanwei supplier) however I was amused by the spread of prices they presented me with. I understand that KOA has a sort of quality control in place, but I’m not sure of its efficiency. I've also got the impression that Therion Arms makes a point of only selling the most recent issue of any model.
The prices listed go:
Therion Arms: $195
Hanwei shop: $159.99
KOA: $133.95
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I have ordered from Kult of Athena many times and been happy every time. I've never heard a bad review of them.
The Hanwei Cup hilt practical is a good starter rapier, as is the Hanwei practical rapier (the swept hilt one), which is even cheaper, and also available from KoA and Therion.
The only other rapier I generally recommend that comes in under $200 is from Alchem ( http://www.alcheminc.com/longhilts.html ), although the model I personally prefer for rapier is just over $200.
Good luck!
Ottawa Swordplay
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Reinier van Noort
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| Posted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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In a similar situation, I bought the Hanwei Practical Cup Hilt from the Knight Shop (.co.uk). I got the Cup Hilt because it fitted the sources I wanted to use best. Recently I also found out that the Cup Hilt blade is considerably less flexible than the other practical blades (that are very flexible!).
So, in short, I heartily advice the Cup hilt as a starter rapier.
School voor Historische Schermkunsten
www.bruchius.com
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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I had a practical cup hilt. I agree that it is an ok. rapier for a beginner, but still it is miles away from, say, Darkwood Armory economy models. Balance and durability are much better with Darkwood and you get the blade lenght you need.
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Chris Slee
Location: Brisbane, Australia Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon 07 Jun, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I still swear by the Hanwei 1098 rapier ($129) I bought from By The Sword (http://www.by-the-sword.com) about three years ago. It may be a little heavy in the overly complex hilt but it looks good and moves easily in bouting. You can easily get replacement blades ($50) if you need to - i've only needed to once - with standard lengths of 37 and 43 inches.
Regards
Chris Slee
http://college-of-arms.org.au
Australian College of Arms
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Mon 07 Jun, 2010 5:13 am Post subject: |
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The 1098 and 1099 practical rapiers are only $95 from KoA, which is ridiculously good. I don't find them overly flexible, but then I prefer a good amount of flex in a practice blade. I know some people find the hilt a little heavy, but the balance is pretty good, and I have no trouble with it. I've used much worse. As far as the guard being overly complex, I'm not sure what to make of that. I will say that it is the only commercially available rapier I have encountered with which you can effectively and easily bind your opponent's blade with the sweeps. The only rapier I've seen that was better for this purpose was one that was handmade by my friend specifically for this function. Not many people teach how to do this technique though.
Ottawa Swordplay
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Isaac H.
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| Posted: Mon 07 Jun, 2010 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Another excellent as well as affordable rapier supplier I highly recommend Zen Warrior Armory (ZWA). I have purchased two schalgers from them and have been very pleased.Mine were $180, but there are some models for less than $120(depending on what blade you choose ). You can mix and match parts to create your own custom sword.Although the selection isn't superb, the customer service is. When one of my ZWA blades broke due to unatural tang stress,they replaced the blade for half price!
The Hanwei practical cup hilt is a begginers weapon at best. A student in my rapier academy owns one so I have observed this weapon first hand.The blade is definately stiff, but far worse is the fact that the quillons are quite weak.Since there is no support between the quillons and the bottom of the guard,the wimpy quillons eventually bend inwards due to combat stress and tightening the pommel.The balance of this sword isn't amazing and the red leather that lines the inside of the guard is peeling off. Although Hanwei is a fantastic company, the practical cup hilt is far from being a fantastic sword.
Wounds of flesh a surgeons skill may heal...
But wounded honor is only cured with steel.
We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.
Each of us should please his neighbor for his good ,to build him up.
Romans 15:1-2
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Jim Mearkle
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I asked Therion about replacement blades for the cup-hilt, and he said they were not available. Then again, the whole sword isn't much more than a replacement blade from Darkwood.
Jim
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Are there any practice blades out there with historically accurate rigid blades?
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I would say that Darkwood bated blade could be quite rigid, but blunt.
| Quote: | | The DA2BR Bated Rapier blade is wider, stiffer and heavier than the DA1PR Practice Rapier. It more accurately represents the weight of many "period" rapier blades, (rather than being a "sport blade" from present times). |
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_...ucts_id=68
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Coffman wrote: | | Are there any practice blades out there with historically accurate rigid blades? |
Personally, In terms of rapiers for free-play, there are plenty of blades available which will allow you to perform all of the historic techniques correctly and yet still flex when you hit your opponent (and actually, you might be surprised to see just how flexible the blades on historic practice pieces were).
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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F. Carl Holz
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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I didn't realize that the difference to a darkwood armoury economy rapier was so little (well, $80), would you say the extra $80 for a darkwood armoury economy rapier is worth it?
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| F. Carl Holz wrote: | | I didn't realize that the difference to a darkwood armoury economy rapier was so little (well, $80), would you say the extra $80 for a darkwood armoury economy rapier is worth it? |
Yes, absolutely. I had both the Hanwei Cup hilt and the Darkwood economy Pappenheimer. The Darkwood economy rapier is slightly less flashy, but it is wastly more durable. For example, the quillons on the Hanwei bent really easy, I actually did not notice what happened (propably due to a heavy cut by my opponent). I cant think that would happen with a Darkwood. Plus you get to choose the blade lenght you need, make a search here in myArmoury or swordforum.com and you find instructions how to get the correct lenght for you. Also the balance point can be customised by getting a different pommel.
The quality of the blade is better with Darkwood and you can get another, if your blade breaks. Also, if you want, you can get a different blade and change your rapier to a more cut oriented weapon, for example by getting the spada blade.
So my opinion is that you cant really compare these two. Darkwood wins every time.
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| F. Carl Holz wrote: | | I didn't realize that the difference to a darkwood armoury economy rapier was so little (well, $80), would you say the extra $80 for a darkwood armoury economy rapier is worth it? |
The Darkwood economy rapier is a far, far superior product in every way.
Ottawa Swordplay
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James Holczer
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I have to echo the preference for Darkwood. The blades that Darkwood produces are in my opinion superior to anything put out by Hanwei. That’s not to say that the Hanwei blades are bad, it just that they do not handle like a Darkwood. Any Hanwie blade I’ve seen 40” or more has far too much whip in it for my taste. While I agree with Steven Reich that you can perform historical techniques correctly with a lot of blades that are out there but an overly whippy blade causes your point control to suffer and depending upon the degree of flexibility it can cause small quick blade actions such as disengagements to become larger and slower.
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| James Holczer wrote: | | I have to echo the preference for Darkwood. The blades that Darkwood produces are in my opinion superior to anything put out by Hanwei. That’s not to say that the Hanwei blades are bad, it just that they do not handle like a Darkwood. Any Hanwie blade I’ve seen 40” or more has far too much whip in it for my taste. While I agree with Steven Reich that you can perform historical techniques correctly with a lot of blades that are out there but an overly whippy blade causes your point control to suffer and depending upon the degree of flexibility it can cause small quick blade actions such as disengagements to become larger and slower. |
I agree with you on the "whippiness" of Hanwei blades. What I wanted to point out in my previous post is that despite what some on the WMA community feel, there are trainers that are far, far better than just "adequate". My point is that if anyone is waiting to get a rapier trainer because he wants something that accurately simulates a "real rapier", then he's waiting needlessly.
A point on "whippiness" and flexibility: while the two are related, a flexible blade does not have to be whippy if it is tapered correctly. I have a blade from Darkwood that flexes very nicely and yet is not whippy in the slightest (my wife has one just like it, except about an inch shorter).
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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James Holczer
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Steven Reich wrote: | | James Holczer wrote: | | I have to echo the preference for Darkwood. The blades that Darkwood produces are in my opinion superior to anything put out by Hanwei. That’s not to say that the Hanwei blades are bad, it just that they do not handle like a Darkwood. Any Hanwie blade I’ve seen 40” or more has far too much whip in it for my taste. While I agree with Steven Reich that you can perform historical techniques correctly with a lot of blades that are out there but an overly whippy blade causes your point control to suffer and depending upon the degree of flexibility it can cause small quick blade actions such as disengagements to become larger and slower. |
I agree with you on the "whippiness" of Hanwei blades. What I wanted to point out in my previous post is that despite what some on the WMA community feel, there are trainers that are far, far better than just "adequate". My point is that if anyone is waiting to get a rapier trainer because he wants something that accurately simulates a "real rapier", then he's waiting needlessly.
A point on "whippiness" and flexibility: while the two are related, a flexible blade does not have to be whippy if it is tapered correctly. I have a blade from Darkwood that flexes very nicely and yet is not whippy in the slightest (my wife has one just like it, except about an inch shorter).
Steve |
I definitely agree, you don’t need to spring for a Darkwood if you want a trainer that will just get the job done. But as I know you are well aware of, a blade that handles properly can make the learning curve easier.
It boils down to taper and temper. The Darkwood blades that I use have very little perceptible “whippiness” to them but yet they are still flexible and durable as well. I do also have a Zamorano blade mounted on a Dennis Graves creation that isn’t too bad in terms of it’s wobble considering how thin it is and how little taper is has but the durability of the blade is in my opinion somewhat suspect. I spend a lot more time with the Zamorano addressing nicks in the blade after practice than I do with my Darkwood.
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This is a standard topic