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Sa'ar Nudel
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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 Posted: Sat 07 Mar, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again, Sa'ar -- that is one of my all-time favorite pics of a Hussar saber, courtesy
of the folk right here at myArmoury !
A side note here about a detail on my saber : The Diamond shaped peening of the butt
cap was by my own request and a personal tribute to a fellow sword enthusiast and
craftsman, Henry Ahmu. And a thankyou to Mark G. for remembering to include
the detail.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Let's all take another look, so back up to the front for awhile, and I would also
like to thank OlliN Sword Design for including this project on their Custom
Shop page at their websight. B-)
http://ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom.html
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Thu 02 Apr, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Matthew!
I wonder if you can tell us what's the weight of the weapon?
I'm searching for info about polish sabers and that info would be very useful.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bartek Strojek wrote: | Hi Matthew!
I wonder if you can tell us what's the weight of the weapon?
I'm searching for info about polish sabers and that info would be very useful. |
Hi Bartek, I wish I could give you an accurate weight. Or that the above OlliN Sword
link provided more info. If I recall correctly Mark G. wrote to me that my particular saber
was over 3 pounds.
Now, I should tell you the L-hilt on my blade is robust, or as some would suggest :
" over-built. " This was by the agreed-upon design. The L-hilt could have been designed
to be half the width, for instance; and perhaps a 1/4 of an inch taken off the knuckle-guard,
which -- I'm guessing here -- might have reduced the weight by as much as a 1/4th of a
pound.
I pmed a Mr. Jonathan Hopkins here a myArmoury who collects antique sabers. He does
not have a Polish Hussar Saber, to my knowledge, but said -- if I recall correctly again --
a Blucher Saber was in the arena of just over 2 pounds. Like you I was trying to figure out
what would be an historically accurate weight for a sword like mine ....
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Beautifull sabre!
Do you have the specs? How does it handle?
My sabre expreience is limited to the Mil.heritage Haidrick. Compared to the medevial blades, the Haidrik has so much forward momentum that it sometimes litteraly pulls itself out of your hand at full swing, so that you end up holding it by the handguard...
I was wondering if the thumb ring could be to stop this from happening?
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | | I pmed a Mr. Jonathan Hopkins here a myArmoury who collects antique sabers. He does not have a Polish Hussar Saber, to my knowledge, but said -- if I recall correctly again --a Blucher Saber was in the arena of just over 2 pounds. Like you I was trying to figure out what would be an historically accurate weight for a sword like mine .... |
British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Officer's Sword (pipe back variant): 1 lb. 13 oz.
British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Officer's Sword: 1 lb. 12 oz
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | Beautifull sabre!
Do you have the specs? How does it handle?
My sabre expreience is limited to the Mil.heritage Haidrick. Compared to the medevial blades, the Haidrik has so much forward momentum that it sometimes litteraly pulls itself out of your hand at full swing, so that you end up holding it by the handguard...
I was wondering if the thumb ring could be to stop this from happening? |
Thankyou, Elling ... I had a good deal of " measurements " input with OlliN Sword in order
to create an imposing relative / recreation / rendition of a Polish Hussar Saber.
The Basic Specs : Blade Length is 33 inches. Blade Width 1.5 inches.
I think there has been some discussion somewhere, maybe just between me and someone
else ( ? ), with regards to modern production-level sabers -- perhaps like those from Military
Heritage or Cold Steel. The critique being that these modern reproductions are heavier
and thus more unwieldy. I have Cold Steel's Blucher Saber, and have to admit -- because
of its muscular L-Hilt -- my OlliN Hussar is heavier. But then I WAS looking for a no-nonsense
brute of a sword to begin with ...
Because I'm NOT a cutter or swordsman, Elling, I can only give you a simple discription of how it
handles with regards to what little I do : Clean and neat. The wide blade has a thinner spine that
tapers beautifully, so what would seem VERY heavy is NOT. I feel it would maneuver well through
back-cuts; the thumb-ring causing no distress to the grip.
As to the thumb-ring, its primary purpose was to afford more control and power in the cut, but it
also anchors the grip. And certainly could serve in stopping the grip from sliding out of hand ...
Here's a look at my OlliN Hussar along side Paolo Abrera's Black Saber ...
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | | Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | | I pmed a Mr. Jonathan Hopkins here a myArmoury who collects antique sabers. He does not have a Polish Hussar Saber, to my knowledge, but said -- if I recall correctly again --a Blucher Saber was in the arena of just over 2 pounds. Like you I was trying to figure out what would be an historically accurate weight for a sword like mine .... |
British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Officer's Sword (pipe back variant): 1 lb. 13 oz.
British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Officer's Sword: 1 lb. 12 oz
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Thanks for the correction, Jonathan, my apologies for never getting back to you ... I had wondered
if the weights were their current or their historical weight ? That is, as time passed, and a sword
underwent sharpening or whatever, might their weight end up inevitably less than when they wer
first brand new ???
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | | Thanks for the correction, Jonathan, my apologies for never getting back to you ... I had wondered if the weights were their current or their historical weight ? That is, as time passed, and a sword underwent sharpening or whatever, might their weight end up inevitably less than when they were first brand new ??? |
Matthew,
The P1796 variant with pipe back blade was likely a bit heavier when new. It has been sharpened for service more than once, and was possibly shortened by a few inches at one point. Still, I doubt it ever exceeded 2 lbs.
The standard P1796 officer's sword does not appear to have been sharpened and has likely always been the same weight.
Jonathan
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again, Jonathan. Let me ask you, and I know it appears I'm looking
for confirmation that weights and widths and lengths and such can varry in a
Polish saber ( or in any sword ), might you agree that such was likely ?
When I take the time to look at antiques, some DO look pretty beasty. But its
rare I run into more stats than length, for instance. And unless the sword is
pictured " in hand " its difficult to size it up accordingly. As I keep wondering,
and I've done this because it HAS been suggested my two recent acquisitions
are " over built " ( and remember, while done privately nobody has been negative
in their shared thoughts, quite quite the contrary ! ), it would seem MORE THAN
likely to me that ANY sword-type might varry in weight, length, etc etc ... and even
the best reproduction -- by a company or an individual -- might be seen in the
same light .... hmmm.
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Lukasz Papaj
Location: Malbork, Poland Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I will try to post some pictures when I get home of some different types of sabre blades found in Poland.
Point is , they were various types from "czeczuga" - similar to "shamshir" blade that is light and unfullered and long, to "heavy" beasts, such as "Szabla nadworna oddziałów księcia Radziwiłła" with blade about 6cm wide at base (but short)
The hussary sabres usually sported "hammer" , sometimes confused with false edge. . Anyway, there were lot of different stuff , so the weights would vary, depending on purpose that sabre was made for.
I will try to scan some pictures and post later
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Lukasz Papaj wrote: | I will try to post some pictures when I get home of some different types of sabre blades found in Poland.
Point is , they were various types from "czeczuga" - similar to "shamshir" blade that is light and unfullered and long, to "heavy" beasts, such as "Szabla nadworna oddziałów księcia Radziwiłła" with blade about 6cm wide at base (but short)
The hussary sabres usually sported "hammer" , sometimes confused with false edge. . Anyway, there were lot of different stuff , so the weights would vary, depending on purpose that sabre was made for.
I will try to scan some pictures and post later |
Dziekuje, Lukasz ! That would be great ! The more discussion and evidence about these interesting
swords, the better. B-)
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | | Thanks again, Jonathan. Let me ask you, and I know it appears I'm looking for confirmation that weights and widths and lengths and such can vary in a Polish saber ( or in any sword ), might you agree that such was likely ? |
Matthew,
I know little about Polish swords, but there was a good deal of variation in weight when it came to many British officers' swords. I would expect that one-offs would vary in weight from one sword to the next. You might be interested in this thread from SFI which discusses Polish swords of the early 20th century. The weight of the Szabla Wz34 is listed as ~3.25 lbs.
Jonathan
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Lukasz Papaj
Location: Malbork, Poland Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Mon 06 Apr, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Here's what I have dug up in "Leksykon Broni Białej i Miotającej" by Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz, Wydawnictwo Bellona, Warsaw, 2003.
First: the "monster size" , aforementioned "Szabla oddziałów nadwornych Karola Radziwiłła" (Sabre of court regiments of Karol Radziwill), 1.7 kg; 108 cm overall length, beginning of XVIII century:
Second: the light side of "battle" sabres, czeczuga, also known as "fiddlestick", 'Armenian' style, blade length 80-90 cm; 0.7-0.8 kg (estimated, may need correction).
There were "costume" sabres that weighted around 0.6 kg, but guess civilian ones does not count
Hussar or "black" sabres are stated at around 0.9 kg, usually shown with closed hilts , sometimes with "furdyment" (cage). Typical stats:
grip length: 90-100 mm
pommel length: 35-50 mm (measured perpendicular to grip, I guess)
quillon length : about 720 mm
Angle of guard to quillon: 100-105 degrees
Blade length: 825-870 mm
blade width 27-31 mm
"feather" (false edge) length: 135-230 mm
Point of Balance: 70-80 mm (measured from pivot, or so it's stated)
Hilt types, right, hussar hilt, note guard does not touch the pommel; left, half open- half closed.
Actually in the book I found only two depictions of half open-half closed hilt:
Top, parade sabre, around year 1770; bottom, battle saber , first half of XVIII century; fairly late ones;
Still this book is by no means extensive source; I've got "Dzieje Szabli w Polsce" ("History of Sabre in Polabnd") by same author incoming via mail in a day or two;
Unfortunately, I found no Zablocki's book around, but he is rather good source, being both olympic sabre medalist and an architect (so he can both fence and draw); still sometimes one just use some artistic license when drawing things, in good faith, but sometimes misleading.
As for S. wz 34 (Sabre, pattern 1934) it's weight is stated at 0.91 kg, with 82.5 cm blade, note that blade is patterned after French light cavalry saber , pattern 1822 rather than "national" ones; there were some nasty quality tests for S. wz. 34, like cutting 5mm rebars. or dropping from 2meters on 2mm steel sheet point-first and achieve penetration, all that without damage to blade . 
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Tue 07 Apr, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Great pics and info, Lukasz ! For those who didn't convert the measurements, the monster-size
saber weighs in at 3.7 pounds ( which I'll gather includes the scabbard ? ) and is 42 inches in
total length ( which might translate to a blade-length of around 35 or so inches ) ...
And thankyou for the link, Jonathan. It does appear we ARE learning that the Polish War Saber
was not -- at least perhaps not always -- a certain standardized shape and form.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Tue 07 Apr, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | | And thankyou for the link, Jonathan. It does appear we ARE learning that the Polish War Saber was not -- at least perhaps not always -- a certain standardized shape and form. |
And that weights exceeding 3 lbs. are not out of the ordinary.
Jonathan
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Lukasz Papaj
Location: Malbork, Poland Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Tue 07 Apr, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | the monster-size
saber weighs in at 3.7 pounds ( which I'll gather includes the scabbard ? ) |
Actually it is just the saber, without the scabbard. With scabbard it is whooping 2.4 kg (5.28 pounds). As I said, monstrosity. One wonders how such thing was used
Still the average of battle sabres is about 2 pounds /0.9 kg.
Standardization is not a Polish thing to do, definitely. One must remember that Polish "Army"in the XVI-first half of XVIII century is not "regular" army, rather regiments funded by local princes/lords , with very few "registered" ones, that is, state-owned. Every one with own supply lines and equipment rules and commandership, many organized similar to medieval "lances" . This state of anarchy is one of things what got us into "Rozbiory" (divisions?), and before that was a major factor in XVIIc. "Deluge" affair.
Now I'm wondering how much of that 3 lbs got into the Matthew's saber hilt
I do not have data on olden sabres yet, but it seems that, but for S.wz 34 tapers from 8mm at hilt to 4mm 24cm from the tip (at the beginning of false edge, measured in the back of the blade). It is said that the part where blade goes into tang was especially reinforced due frequent breakages of earlier models in that area.
Last thing, the "Polish Sabre Hilt Genesis" from the work of S. Meyer, sabre collector from Krakow, made before World War II .... some connections seem odd to me, but I think it is interesting enough to ponder.
 Attachment: 90.89 KB
Polish Sabre Hilt Genesis, S.Meyer, Krakow, before WWII. Did some clearing up and retraced the Schiavona hilt.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Wed 08 Apr, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now I'm wondering how much of that 3 lbs got into the Matthew's saber hilt ... |
The hilt components, other than the langets and thumb-ring, are considerable in measurements,
Lukasz. To give the gentlemen at OlliN Sword an idea of what I was looking for I asked them
to look at one of their own designs and extrapolate the L-Hilt from there. I DID make a modification
to the knuckle-guard's measurements, however; enlargening it to be a real jaw-buster, or if in need,
an iron for one's clothes ( Yes, oddly enough the idea occurred to me ! If you follow ... ); and suggested
the placement / shape of the thumb-ring be modified as well. By the way, kudos to the gents at OlliN
Sword once again, the flow of communication during the design stage was superior and the project
gradually moved forward firing on all cylinders.
Here's a look at the Hussar when layed next to my Black Saber ( hopefully you had a chance to look
at that thread when it was fresh ! ) ...
As you can see, both have hilts and grips slightly different ...
My OlliN Hussar MIGHT have felt different weight-wise had I not chosen the considerable
presence of the hilt. As it stands, however, the sword does not feel front heavy -- nor should it
since the spine tapers from 1/4 of an inch to under an 1/8th of an inch at the backedge. The grip
is near perfect in hand, specially when anchorred by the thum-ring. I think this version of a Polish
War Saber, if we want to try and imagine it fitting into history, would have been a dangerous cavalry
saber; a vigorous slashing / chopping weapon ...
Another shot, in hand ...
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Thu 09 Apr, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Lukasz, I was looking through your rather interesting inputs and the second photo cought my eye: the so-called "Armenian". It looks like a renaissance of the Magyar/Avar saber of the 10th-11th centuries.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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