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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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 Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sa'ar Nudel wrote: | Matthew, this is exactly what I meant - a professional tool of the trade, no bells & whistles, just top materials, best done.
The rivets look great to my taste, they add a slight "gothic flavour".
There is an extremely similar hilted saber (antique) in one of my books, also stated to be 17th century. Its blade, however, appears to be plain rather the complex cross section you have. |
Sa'ar, if at all possible, could you scan or photograph that pic and post it here ?
And here's yet another look at the hilt / grip of The Black Saber ...
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Hey Matthew, would it by any chance be possible to post a photo of the saber in your hand?
I have a problem getting a feeling for its size and proportions.
Hands differ in size of course, but it would still be helpful. I´ve only seen one pic when Paolo holds it. In his hands it looked very substantial in size.
It would hep settle my curious mind.
Thanks!
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | Hey Matthew, would it by any chance be possible to post a photo of
the saber in your hand? I have a problem getting a feeling for its size and proportions. Hands
differ in size of course, but it would still be helpful. I´ve only seen one pic when Paolo holds it.
In his hands it looked very substantial in size. It would hep settle my curious mind.
Thanks!
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Not a problem, Peter. In fact, I included a few other pics to help with perspective and
proportions ...
The Black Saber in hand ...
 
The Tinkerbella in hand, before going to Christian Fletcher and after ...
 
The Cold Steel Blucher saber in hand ...
And another replica from a gent long ago ...
Just a quick sidenote :
There's been a great deal of positive response to my post, and I do enjoy that my fellow
forumites take pleasure not only in the presence of this unique endeavor by Paolo Abrera,
but also in my realizing a quest for said saber. With that said, I want to make sure all
understand that I invite all manner of insights and questions; the positive as well as the
negative. No sword, no thing, is ever perfect; and there is no doubt in my mind that some
swords are made more accurately than others.
For myself, I'm holding back a few things here and there as I share different ideas about
The Black Saber with different people. All for keeping this thread alive and in people's
" eye view " for awhile because, as some have written me, I can't recall how often we've seen
this style of blade recreated by any of the swordsmiths or production companies we've all
come to know and love ( okay, love's a rather strong word, but I think you get my drift ) ...
Last edited by Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz on Fri 23 Jan, 2009 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Thank you very much!
Food for thought.
This must brew a while in my fevered brain.
Best
Peter
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew, thank you for the "sword in hand" photos. You have an ample hilt, yet not oversized. Did you try to manipulate the saber with a thick leather glove on? It seems you have space exactly for that.
I will post a photo from the book soon.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Sun 25 Jan, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sa'ar Nudel wrote: | Matthew, thank you for the "sword in hand" photos. You have an ample hilt, yet not oversized. Did you try to manipulate the saber with a thick leather glove on? It seems you have space exactly for that.
I will post a photo from the book soon. |
Hi Sa'ar, I did put on a glove, but nothing that would qualify as a soldier's mit mind you. And
there is that thought as well as the fact that I do not have big hands. I wish my Dad were still
alive, he had BIG hands ...
And here's a photo of THE sword that actually, as I recall things, started my interest and my
quest. A certain gent here at myArmoury will certainly remember it, I think ...
A relatively recent replica :
Sidenote : To those I owe some private replies, I'm a' working on them. B-)
Also, here's a url, Sa'ar that you and others will definitely find interesting ....
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=759
Last edited by Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz on Sun 25 Jan, 2009 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Mon 26 Jan, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a little history from a bit of late-night digging around ...
| Quote: | Hussar szabla
The hussar sabre was perhaps the best-known type of szabla of its times and became a
precursor to many other such European weapons. Introduced around 1630, it served as a
Polish cavalry to cavalry mêlée weapon, mostly used by heavy cavalry, or Polish Hussars.
Much less curved than its Armenian predecessors, it was ideal for horseback fighting and
allowed for much faster and stronger strikes. The heavier, almost fully closed hilt offered
both good protection of the hand and much better control over the sabre during a skirmish.
Two feather-shaped pieces of metal on both sides of the blade called moustache (wąsy)
offered greater durability of the weapon by strengthening its weakest point: the joint between
the blade and the hilt. The soldier fighting with such sabre could use it with his thumb extended
along the back-strap of the grip for even greater control when 'fencing' either on foot or with
other experienced horsemen, or by using the thumb-ring, a small ring of steel or brass at
the junction of the grip and the cross-guard through which the thumb is placed, could give
forceful downward swinging cuts from the shoulder and elbow with a 'locked' wrist against
infantry and less experienced horsemen. This thumb ring also facilitated faster 'recovery'
of the weapon for the next cut. A typical hussar szabla was relatively long, with the average
blade of 85 centimetres in total. The tip of the blade, usually some 15 to 18 centimetres long,
was in most cases double-edged. Such sabres were extremely durable yet stable, and were
used in combat well into 19th century.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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And some more digging around .... I'm not sure these are antiques or replicas,
as I couldn't read the Polish text. Could be replicas ...
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Tue 27 Jan, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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If you give me the link, I can check the text.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, it says " My name is Tadeusz, I'm interested in melee weapons, especialy sabres. I collect different elements of sabers, analize the construction, and then put them together into whole piece, what brings me satisfaction. I try to mantain historical correctness, what certainly isn't possible in 100%. I also buy interesting replicas.
So it seems that he constructed them from pieces, but if pieces are antique or replicas he didn't say.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Bartek Strojek wrote: | Hmm, it says " My name is Tadeusz, I'm interested in melee weapons, especialy sabres. I collect different elements of sabers, analize the construction, and then put them together into whole piece, what brings me satisfaction. I try to mantain historical correctness, what certainly isn't possible in 100%. I also buy interesting replicas.
So it seems that he constructed them from pieces, but if pieces are antique or replicas he didn't say. |
Thanks, Bartek. It would seem they are replicas / reproductions, still a guess. I posted the photo
primarily for the L-hilted saber on the left, the hilt of which looks pretty substantial ...
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for the delay, here is the awaited pic. Taken from the Hungarian book Kardok (= swords) by Lugosi & Temesvary. I hope it would contribute to the general info here.
 Attachment: 110.18 KB
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I've been looking for a copy of Kardok for a long, long time. |
Hmmm, very hard to find, even in its own country. I was lucky enough to by my copy almost by mistake on my first trip to Hungary, 8 years ago. On every additional trip (last September was the 5th) I look for copies to colleagues, and nothing so far.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Here's little something, thanks to Nathan R., a pic that looks awfully familiar ... B-)
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Recently, and behind the scenes privately, some experienced gentlemen
raised observations regarding The Black Saber's proportions and scale.
They did so in a very positive way, recognizing the craftsmanship and
skill it took to create such a unique sword, as well as my own passion
to see such a sword made. My respect to you gents for taking a dare
hoping I wouldn't go off the deep-end on you. B-)
After a bit of discourse I decided to ply Paolo with questions based on
their observations and here's what Paolo had to write ( posted here with
his permission ) ...
| Quote: |
Lemme write out a couple of thoughts and see if I can hit more birds
with fewer stones.
While historicaly-inspired, the "Black Saber" is far from a strict
repro. I think it's best appreciated as an allegorical ode to the
history and mythology of the Husaria, the invincible Polish cavalry.
These were tough, strong men who made the very earth beneath them
tremble when they charged towards the enemy. So in my imagination,
heros of such mythic proportions needed to be represented by a sword
of equal "measure", so to speak.
In my understanding of Polish history, the 16th century was a time of
great "orientalization" for Poland. The well-loved ruler Stephan
Bathory, a transylvanian prince, popularized his native
Hungarian-style of saber which then was heavily influenced by the
Ottoman turkish designs which were in great fashion among the knightly
"szlachta". In my mind, this mixing and melding of eastern and
european designs are what would have spawned the black saber. So yes,
there certainly is a very overt reference to turkish kilij, because
that influence was very much in fashion at the time we pegged the
black saber (16th-17th C). The blade itself is loosely modeled on a
kilij-style blade listed in Zablocki's book on Polish war sabers and
another kilij-style blade you had posted before (i'll attach the
pics). Zablocki's book lists so many other Polish saber styles and the
other measurements of this sword are again loosely based on those
found in the book.
Based on our discussions I envisioned this saber to be a brute-force
weapon far removed from the finesse of the more lithe 18th century
style of polish saber. Something that remained strapped to a hussars
saddle much like his "palash" of kilometric length. A "wartime
special" rather than an everyday carry, plain brutish, soldier stuff
rather than courtly baubles. This is how I interpretted the black
saber and I hope it conjures the same heroic imagery for other people
too.
But I think it's important to understand the black saber as an
allegory done in high-style. It's not just curved it's VERY curved. It
doesnt sport a slight mlotek, it has a LARGE yelman. It's a large
-scale weapon made to give one an impression of the strong men (with
big hands ;-) ) who would have weilded it. Kind of like trying to fit
into your father's shoes when you were nine ;-) Liken it to japanese
odachi, a shock and awe weapon of equally substantial, almost
theatric, proportions. It's a 357 magnum rather than a 9 mm glock.
Since decorativism is almost non-existent on purpose, it's very over
the top in terms of scale and proportion rather than embelishment. ;-)
Hope that answers some of the questions. I enjoyed discussing it in
these terms. ;-)
Best,
Paolo
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Here is one of Paolo's researched pictures that I hadn't seen before. It makes
me recall an email discussion we had regarding what type of hilt / grip would
suit the blade he had made.
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew, referring to your former post from Feb 1st, assuming the saber in the line drawing is a historical one, it is interesting to see this dated mid-17th century saber with a complex blade and its hilt almost fully enclosed, a forerunner of its 18th century direct descendant.
In addition to Paolo's note, I recommend to check Michal Dziewulski's short book Eastern Influence on Polish Arms, it can be found in pdf format on vikingsword.com.
On your last post, if you take saber #5 and remove the thumb ring you'll have a Bedouin saber per-se...
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth
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| Posted: Tue 03 Feb, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I've been looking for a copy of Kardok for a long, long time. |
 I can send you a copy if you want.
Zoltán
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