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Wayne Kroncke




Location: Glos. UK
Joined: 10 Nov 2008

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 4:44 am    Post subject: Hungarian/Magyar Sabres         Reply with quote

thought i'd share these two:

A couple of hungarian sabres from the maker, V. Berbekucz in hungary.

9th C. Magyar sabre at top, 16 C. Magyar at the bottom.



the top 9C feels balanced the best, the 16C is a bit point heavy.

CAVE CANEM ET SEMPER PARATUS
Dic, hospes Spartae nos te hic vidisse iacentes,
Dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur

If they don't want me to eat animals - why do they make them out of MEAT?
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Wayne, thanks for posting.
Did you also ordered the scabbards for the two swords? VB usually sells them seperately.
Is your version of the 16th c. saber a blunt one? When I had met Viktor he pointed out that his blunt swords are heavier due to more mass of the blade, he leaves a 3mm edge for safety reasons.
I own one of his falchions, check here http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+berbekucz ,
it had been bought blunt and I just got it back from sharpening and removing adjacent material off the blade, in order to retain proper blade & edge geometry. The sword lost 200 grams in the process (weight now is 1.450kg) and now balances superbly at 3-1/2".
I believe that with correct feedback Viktor has a great future in swordmaking.

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice items, Wayne, Sa'ar ...

Allow me to share some of my own scowerings online ...

In my long quest for a maker of a 16th / 17th century Hussar Saber, with
L-hilt and a thumb-ring, I ran across a couple of websites with intereting
offerings and information ...

http://www.bronbiala.pl/marcin.php?PHPSESSID=...f8ba885df1

Here's one pick from their selection of replicas ...



And this one too ...

http://www.polishhussarsupply.com/index.html

And let's not forget my first journey into getting a " Hussar Saber " made :



The end result of that project turned out to be more of a Hungarian / Polish replica from
the 16th / 17th century.

You can see the likeness from a more historical looking replica from the first above
mentioned website :



And then this historical drawing :



Or this one :



I'm honestly fascinated by the evolution of these particular sabers in the Polish, Hungarian,
Russian parts of the world and that time in history. The marvelous curves and yelmen, the
double fullered blades. The advantage the thumb-ring provided a cavalryman in delivering
cuts and controlling his blade. Oddly, though, I haven't been able, or maybe haven't been
diligent enough, in finding a detailed description how a blade like these were made; and
only can assume to some degree how the hilts and grips were constructed by the visual
evidence ...
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David Black Mastro




Location: Central NJ
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The thumb-ring was a great invention; of all the original Continental European basket-hilted broadswords and backswords I've handled over the past couple of years, the best-feeling ones had thumb-rings.

Those sabers with thumb-rings look great.

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew, these are great additions. After I gave this much thought, the thumb ring does sounds like an improvement, but I must check it hands on. Being left handed (though I can fight not bad at all using my right hand) I wonder if there are any historical sabers with left-handed thumb ring.
I think it very hard to tell between 15th/16th c. Hungarian to Polish sabers (exept documented or signed pieces of course), if possible at all.
The sword of king Stephan Batory looks all buisness, the blade in the drawing have a rather complex cross section.
Check the following pic - this is a Bedouin saber fitted with an unidentified blade, probably a quality copy of a trade blade. Note similarities in deep fullers, curvature and (almost non visible in the pic) a short sharpened false edge.



 Attachment: 117.45 KB
‏‏עותק של בדואית1.JPG


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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Matthew, these are great additions...


Hiya Guys ... What intrigues me about the " genealogy, " if you will, of the saber -- sad to
say, without being able to quote history or texts -- is that the blade-styles differ in a variety
of ways. Sweeping curves. Shallow curves. Single fullers. Double and even triple fullers.
Wider imposing yelmen. Simpler back-edge / yelmen. I would think including many of
these characteristics would make the forging of a saber blade a greater test of skill than,
and I'm just tossing this out here guys so please don't take offense, a straight blade.

For instance, in another forum I asked some of the partaking sword-smiths, who primarily
created Japanese Style blades, how well they could control the curvature of any particular
blade. I know this may be comparing apples to coconuts, but the general consensus
seemed to be they could NOT control the process to, for instance, create a greater curve.
In the meantime, the saber and its relatives -- whether its origins come from as far east
as China and Japan or not -- offer such geometry as this ...

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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems only natural that forging a curved blade to a precise arch is more difficult than forging a straight blade. It seems easier to reform geometry flaws in a straight line on an anvil. The heat treatment can cause additional warps and bends.
If I recall correct, the Japanese procedure let the quench do the curvature on its own, therefore no control. The exterior complexity of the east Euopean saber (not to mention its close relatives - the shamshir, palah and kilic) is all done on purpose and must retain its intended shape after the heat treatment.

BTW, I'm not familiar with the term yelmen Blush , please explain.

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David Black Mastro




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Bathory's saber, and this replica:



are my personal favorites, of the sabers shown here.



BTW, what is the yelmen? Does this refer to the false/back edge?

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we await an answer regarding the term yelmen, behold this another complexed saber blade, this time fitted into a Gruzinska, Georgian sword.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=3397

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Jeff Demetrick





Joined: 11 Oct 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are correct, a yelmen is the raised back edge of the saber.

Jeff[/i]
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David Jenkins




Location: Putaruru, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With (traditional) Japanese swords there is some adjustment of the curve. Either by heating a spot with red-hot copper block and quenching in water (to bend) or by hammering on on back ridge (with sword on its side, to straighten). (source The Craft of the Japanese Sword)
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David Black Mastro




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff Demetrick wrote:
You are correct, a yelmen is the raised back edge of the saber.

Jeff



Many thanks, Jeff.

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another example of a modern replica. I'm not sure who did this blade, its
just one of many pictures I've been able to find online ...



One thing I've noticed, when scrounging through the links page here and else
where, is that there are few if any makers or companies, like an Albion or an
Arms & Armor for instance, who re-create these swords. Cold Steel offers a
Blucher Saber which is rather nice for the price, but at that price one tends to
question the quality and performance. Lutel has a number of pictures in its
gallery of various sabers, but nothing I could see as a typical offering. A smith
like Vince Evans has made curved blades, but he's likely out of the usual
collector's price range. I think we've seen John Lundemo do some really nice
work, but the blades I recall seeing -- a shamshir style and kilij style -- had
shallow curves. That's not a knock on him, mind you, because those types, as
well as sabers, don't necessitate a pronounced curve.

I know I haven't covered everyone, but I think you know what I mean ...

Quote:

With (traditional) Japanese swords there is some adjustment of the curve. Either by heating a
spot with red-hot copper block and quenching in water (to bend) or by hammering on on back
ridge (with sword on its side, to straighten). (source The Craft of the Japanese Sword)


I've read that book, and have in the past referenced a couple others. Adjusting
the curve is one thing, but actually intending to create a blade with a crescent,
fullered shape and yelmen might be something else. And heck, I don't even
know dead certain that such blades were " intended " to have so much curve,
or -- as with Japanese blades -- a vaguely adjustable result of the forging /
shaping process ....
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew, that last saber you posted above is very nice. Please compare its newly made blade to the blade of the original old Bedouin saber I have posted to see how similar they appear. Oddly as it may sound, Hungarian blades were sought after by arab sword fitters and were regarded highly; so were German blades.
The Cold Steel Blucher is supposed to be an excellent bargain, very close to the original in measures and weight. I've handled it and it feels very good.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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David Black Mastro




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Matthew, that last saber you posted above is very nice. Please compare its newly made blade to the blade of the original old Bedouin saber I have posted to see how similar they appear. Oddly as it may sound, Hungarian blades were sought after by arab sword fitters and were regarded highly; so were German blades.


Why would that sound "odd"? A good quality blade is a good quality blade, no?


Quote:
The Cold Steel Blucher is supposed to be an excellent bargain, very close to the original in measures and weight. I've handled it and it feels very good.


I must disagree here.

I have an original Blucher, and the Cold Steel version doesn't balance anything like the original. The Cold Steel certainly cuts well, but it feels heavy and "clunky" when compared to all the original 1796s and 1812s I have handled.

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Black Mastro wrote:
Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Matthew, that last saber you posted above is very nice. Please compare its newly made blade to the blade of the original old Bedouin saber I have posted to see how similar they appear. Oddly as it may sound, Hungarian blades were sought after by arab sword fitters and were regarded highly; so were German blades.


Why would that sound "odd"? A good quality blade is a good quality blade, no? Yep, Just take in consideration the distance between Hungary of the 19th c. to the Middle East, where quality blades from mainland Turkey or Iran were readily available. Hungary was not pretty famous as a blade exporter, comparing to Britain, Germany or France.

Quote:
The Cold Steel Blucher is supposed to be an excellent bargain, very close to the original in measures and weight. I've handled it and it feels very good.


I must disagree here.

I have an original Blucher, and the Cold Steel version doesn't balance anything like the original. The Cold Steel certainly cuts well, but it feels heavy and "clunky" when compared to all the original 1796s and 1812s I have handled. It may be so. I've handeled several types of Blucher style sabers but when I had a chance to swing the CS saber there was none around, so I had no original to compare at the spot. I do remember that the CS 1917 cutlass do feel awkward and blade heavy comparing the original, as it lacks the distal taper..

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David Black Mastro




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
David Black Mastro wrote:
Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Matthew, that last saber you posted above is very nice. Please compare its newly made blade to the blade of the original old Bedouin saber I have posted to see how similar they appear. Oddly as it may sound, Hungarian blades were sought after by arab sword fitters and were regarded highly; so were German blades.


Why would that sound "odd"? A good quality blade is a good quality blade, no? Yep, Just take in consideration the distance between Hungary of the 19th c. to the Middle East, where quality blades from mainland Turkey or Iran were readily available. Hungary was not pretty famous as a blade exporter, comparing to Britain, Germany or France.



OK understood.



Quote:
Quote:
The Cold Steel Blucher is supposed to be an excellent bargain, very close to the original in measures and weight. I've handled it and it feels very good.


I must disagree here.

I have an original Blucher, and the Cold Steel version doesn't balance anything like the original. The Cold Steel certainly cuts well, but it feels heavy and "clunky" when compared to all the original 1796s and 1812s I have handled. It may be so. I've handeled several types of Blucher style sabers but when I had a chance to swing the CS saber there was none around, so I had no original to compare at the spot. I do remember that the CS 1917 cutlass do feel awkward and blade heavy comparing the original, as it lacks the distal taper..



The worst offenders from Cold Steel are their basket-hilts. They have that annoying oversized "one-size-fits-all" basket, which adds unnecessary weight. Every single CS basket-hilt I have handled felt like a friggin' baseball bat--nothing at all like the numerous English, Scottish, and Contintental European originals I have been fortunate enough to examine.

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Hungarian/ Magyar Sabres         Reply with quote

There's no denying that the swords carried by the Polish Hussars are derived from Hungarian sabres, though.
People like me seem interested on Hussar swords but not the ones posted by Matthew.
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Josh McNeal




Location: N.W., FL
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone, this is my first post here on myArmoury, but I am a longtime lurker.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with V. Berbekucz? I have emailed him numerouse times to see about commissioning a sword, but I have recieved no response. I have also contacted Armour Class, and if he will not respond then Armour Class is definitely getting the commission. I had originally wanted a maker in the general region of the sabre's birth to make the sword because I'm a hopeless romantic at heart and having a sabre forged in it's land of origin just feels right. Thank you in advance to any who can help me.

On second thought, I'm going with Armour Class due to their lightning fast response time, and their incredible reputation, but if I can contact the man in eastern europe I may consider a second piece.

Comments are welcome, and if anyone wants to know more about my project, or has input, then I'm all ears. And yes, I already know that I am the master of the run-on sentence. Big Grin

We are what we do when it matters most.
-an old Masai saying
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Sa'ar Nudel




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh welcome aboard.
Viktor himself doesn't speak English but his wife does. It sometimes take them 2-3 days to answer, unless they are in a fair, somewhere in Europe. It is a 2 person buisness.
Personally I'm about to comission another sword from him in the next future.

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