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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Bayerisches XVIIIb Details         Reply with quote

I've seen the wonderful pommel photos of the famous Bayerisches Nationalmuseum XVIIb (see below,) but I've never seen any equivalent images of the cross. The pommel appears to be selectively gilt. Does anybody know if that's true of the cross as well? If so, what parts of the cross are gilt? I'm toying with the idea of a blued and gilt hilt for an A&A Dürer, and would love to know more about historic decoration of this sword type.

Thanks!



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Apr, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a pica from an old thread about this sword:

From: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4219


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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Apr, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a shot of the whole hilt, taken by our own Craig Peters I believe.
Dan



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's what I needed. Thanks, folks! Not sure why I didn't turn those up in the search that netted the pommel photos...

When this steel was new and polished, this decoration must have been very subtle.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are my eyes going batty? On the pic I posted, it looks like the center facet of the guard is gilded. On the pic Dan posted, the center facet looks like steel, while the outer facets are gilded.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Are my eyes going batty? On the pic I posted, it looks like the center facet of the guard is gilded. On the pic Dan posted, the center facet looks like steel, while the outer facets are gilded.


I think you're right, Chad. Looking closer, I think we may be seeing both sides of the cross. Note the old accession number on the left quillon in the photo you posted.

Very interesting....

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, it looks like on one side there are two protuberances, any pics of that detail and why they are there?

Catch
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lawrence Parramore wrote:
Hi, it looks like on one side there are two protuberances, any pics of that detail and why they are there?

Catch


I wondered about that, too, then realized they're the display supports.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OMG, jokes on me LOL Laughing Out Loud
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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, one thing i would like to know, with a pommel like this do you think they drilled it rather than punched it, punching through a pommel like this is not easy and tends to deform the work , so how did they do it?

Catch
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've often wondered if part of the swordsmith's skill lay in calculating how much a pommel would deform during piercing and compensating for that in the initial shape of the pommel--say, vertically slightly oval instead of round if he wanted to end up with a round pommel.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Guys...

Here is a closer view.

The really clear photo is by Craig Peters

ks



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WHL.J1.18a.Bastard.Bl91wt1470.(MunichSw).Cross.15th.BN.CraigPeters.jpg
Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich
Detail of photo by Craig Peters


Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
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One of God or one of man
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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow the display supports are really clear on this one Laughing Out Loud nice photo.

Sean,
Maybe they used a supporting form, but really i have done a few of these and it is a long way to punch through, I lost the end of a punch once too Mad but there again I was doing it by myself, i suppose it would be a lot easier with two, one with a nice big sledge hammer Eek!

I guess I am getting a bit off topic.

Catch
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Apr, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just remembered a similar sword in the Musée de l'Armée Paris. Photos by Manoucher M. The museum identifies this as French, but it is extremely similar to the sword in question here, even down to the gilding.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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