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Peter Bosman
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 Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: |
I don't know if it's just me, but if I were to come across a guy on a horse with a spear while doing some cross-country or hiking, my first reaction would not to be offended. Would be more like "Damn, this country is so great, can I live here ?"....  |
So would mine but unfortunately the western world is populated by a vast mayority of people who do eat meat but do not want to be confronted with the fact this grows on something alive and is equally hypocritical about anything that can be conceived as dangerous. That is called political correctness nowadays. In our valley the locals, as do we, still kill and eat their own home fattened pig but foreign tourism does bring in money and what we experience with those tourist is beyond words (and understanding).
| Quote: | | You seem to like chinese sword.... maybe you can find a long jian repro for under 1000 dollars on ebay ? |
I have no preference for chinese or say french and in fact like the german reitschwert a lot. My inclination to the jian/dao originates from taichi being very usefull for my riding.
Although more a WANT then a MUST, all things equal I will choose a well balanced sword I can use for my taichi excersizes which for ME might just as well be a smallsword or a jian.
The repro quality I am looking at is produced by Huanuo and ZengWu and can be bought through various outlets. Ebay is not the best nor cheapest source in this instance.
The issue of authentic or not still remains though. In this price bracket serviceable originals CAN (still) be found. Since I am not going to clobber trees, nor cilinder blocks nor molest water bottles and prefer to EAT melons  I do not need the sturdyness I expect from the axe I chop wood for the stove with.
'Silly sharp' or even meat cutting sharp is not needed, in fact NOT wanted which means the edge can have a lot more support behind it thus asking less from the blade if it ever were to meet with something like .... a dog
Yes, a quality reproduction will obviously be more robust than the original but the replica seldom meets the geometric qualities of the example and prizewise the difference is often nonexistant. Remember that one should compair compairable quality. If you are looking at a 18th century smallsword that a french baron might have owned you should compair this with something by Vince Evans and the like AT LEAST. Even then the original would carry the flag in balance...
Now as I am looking at swords a long way removed from this level even if it were to suffer from me using it, it would hardly be an archeological disaster 
I have made an appointment with my instructor specially about the + and - of authentic-, replica-, and competition swords.
The suggestion to look at the GreatRiverTaoist Forum was very worthwhile although raising as many questions as answering
Meanwhile this 'quest' has unearthed an unexpected wealth of related information for me. I was quite surprised p.e. to find that the chinese often carried their sword from a bronze ' clip' directly compaireable with the smallsword clip.
Thus thanks all for the food for thought sofar.
peter
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about getting a sword for combine usage for horse back use AND on foot martial arts. The balance and length that is ideal for both are fairly different. I suppose you could get one that is okay at both...but since on horse back you have a greater risk of injury then say just training, I don't personally think this is a good idea.
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mr. Bosman,
Although the responses in this thread appear in general to have had great difficulty in staying on topic and answering your question, it seems clear that the implicit consensus is for a replica rather than an original.
My own inclination is to agree. Even in the case of mass-produced or munitions-quality, relatively recent swords of which many examples now exist, a day will come when that is no longer true. Not using an original delays that day.
I hope this proves helpful as you come to a decision.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | I don't know about getting a sword for combine usage for horse back use AND on foot martial arts. |
Well, up to a point both yes and no. For a large part de upper body techniques with the spear are very much transferable to the saddle.
Sword and sabre however differ hugely and in the saddle it makes all the difference in the world wether the target is mounted of on ground level for both.
| Quote: | | The balance and length that is ideal for both are fairly different. |
Depending on the target hight.
| Quote: | | ..since on horse back you have a greater risk of injury then say just training, I don't personally think this is a good idea. |
I guess you mean the risk of having a too independant seat
As I can pick an arrow from the ground, even a short sword still is about armlength and the dogs usually larger than dachshund I do not worry about that too much.
My riding stick is under 90 cm. and I have no problem making contact if I want that. The riding stick however has a rubber cap and is wrapped in spongy tape which will not impress the dog all that much and THAT is why I want something heftier for the unlikely situation I need it.
The way I see it, being accustomed to it through whatever practice inspires confidence and as it ALL is a confidence thing anyway , to me it seems to be a good  to
For your info: over here bullfighting on horseback is VERY popular; the neighbouring village (about 3000 inhabitants) in the same valley forks out quite a lot of money to organise a quality rejoneo event yearly. These rejoneadores stick 15 cm. long bandarillas in the bull's shoulders and kill it with a rejon (blade) of 4 feet only.
Now I would not dream of harassing a bull nor putting my horse at risc but a do mock excersizes usig rejoneo techniques with a small 20 kg. strawbale. The ONLY tricky bit is to avoid lodging the sharp instrument in the target and as I want NOT to do that to the dog anyway I asume I will be ok with that.
Yes, I know, strawbales are not known for their blindingy fast reactions but a dog is only a problem when staying to close by. They can threaten all they want, it is only when one aims for my lower legs or the horse's heels that I get worried and that is close enough to reach.
The rejoneadores btw always work on the right hand and I train on both. The difference is that the rejoneador attacks the bull whereas the dog attacks me; the rejoneador choses his position and I may have to adapt.
What a hassle over a few feral 'mutts' no?!
Meanwhile a friend of mine has sent me news that through her I can have access to professional archeological artefact restorers that also do swords. That does not make the originals any stronger, it does give me another source to get my expectations sorted out right.
Btw, I was shown a restauration project last year and the tang of that has made me acutely aware of the limitations of using an antique for cutting: even alkaline sulphite rust inhibitors do not restore lost strenght
peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Millman wrote: | Dear Mr. Bosman,
Although the responses in this thread appear in general to have had great difficulty in staying on topic and answering your question, it seems clear that the implicit consensus is for a replica rather than an original.
My own inclination is to agree. Even in the case of mass-produced or munitions-quality, relatively recent swords of which many examples now exist, a day will come when that is no longer true. Not using an original delays that day.
I hope this proves helpful as you come to a decision.
Best,
Mark Millman |
Thank you mark. No discussion about it.
For me the patina of an old sword is honourable and something quite extra; confidence inspiring.
The question is how much extra at what price in functionality for he intended use. The conficence thing also counts here: how much confidence can you have in a tired sword? That might end up being an internal contradiction: honourable unreliability adding up to less than zero.
I guess that sums it up for me at the moment.
peter
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well I was talking swords. I know spears are a bit more transferable from foot to horseback use (also another + for using spear btw ). It's not just a matter of reach...but optimal reach. You wanna be able to hit with your sweet spot...and the downward motion used from horseback is much different from on foot swordplay. There are quite a few swords that can do both adquately well(I believe the doge would work well in both from it's vital stats...but as I don't own one, nor able to handle one so I can't confirm this...maybe Jean can when he gets his in)...but since horseback has a bit of life danger to it, I don't think skimping on horseback usage is a good idea. You should get a sword that is good to ideal for horseback first and formost is just what I'm saying (unless your revisiting the idea of the spear...in which case, that works well enough too).
Also if you want a way to cover your spear but have quick access, you can do what I did and use a piece of heavy cloth and velcro. The tip will eventually rip and shred the cover after a few of the quick removals but if you don't see the need for it often, it works pretty well. My friend also uses one of those clip on knife cover attached to a string for his smaller spears. That works pretty well too.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just another sword suggestion: This one available at KoA http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH22...i+Jian.htm
If I were to be tempted by a Chinese sword reproduction this is the one I would go for even only for aesthetic reasons.
Hanwei Qi Jian: Bob Burns had a look at it and seemed to be impressed by the quality. ( You could P.M. him and ask him to check it out again for you or just give you his initial impressions ).
Oh, being in Europe maybe you have a vendor more convenient for you but KoA is a very reliable one.
Just giving you options to consider.
In addition to your original question about using an original or a modern quality reproduction I think just considering and comparing different swords as to suitability for the use you want to put it to is an interesting subject in itself, no matter what you eventually decide for yourself: I find this a very interesting Topic as a lot of thought can go into the various sword design choices different people might favour.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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You know, thats a nice looking jian...no must keep saving for albion...dang it...I need more money, or less expensive hobbies.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Jean.
Most HanWei swords are intended for the collectionists and I have been told by the serious practitioners that despite the marketing formula this 'Qi' jian is not intended to be stressed. This albiet attractive particular one has a weight and balance that makes it unsuiteable for excersizes too.
The practical line jian(s) are ' functional' even though these are blunt and thus not suiteable for cutting.
I am going down to the village in a moment and my instructor would take his sword with him.
peter
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I would use a firearm, a wounded animal can be very dangerous, boars are to be killed or left alone.
A lot of time ago I read of an italian group of hunter who went for boars with spears but it was pretty much pre-internet stuff.
They were considered very, very skilled and brave ...
But hasn't such matter been discussed already on this forum?
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Bruno, mounted boarhunting with a lance is still being done over here if rarely. I could even participate if I wanted to. It is less 'brave' than risking a good horse... That is however no object as boar are easy enough to avoid.
As you have read (or not) a firearm is way overboard, overkill and simply ADDING risc.
To deal with the occasional dog(s) a pointed rod of construction iron would probably do but that falls a bit short of my idea of ' nice' 
As I wrote I spend a lot of hourse riding so even a quite expensive blade would be a negligable amount per hour.
The info from my instructor has put the accent on blade quality and balance, ergo quality replica or serviceable original. The latter completely depending on the 'residu' quality and I do not know if this can be realiably asserted.
At the moment I am still on the fence between someting new from ZengWu/Huanuo or restoring a relatively recent original.
Per example:
Replica http://www.zheng-wu.com/jian/IronjianQing.jpg
or
Unrestored original http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/swords/img/3307.jpg
To put functionality of antique metal in perspective we should not forget that many sword(blade)s had usefull lives spanning several generations, sometimes centuries. There is ample archeological proof for this.
Even completely functional quality antque firearms are not at all exceptional. Reliable hunting guns from the 19th century can be bought fairly easy and relatively cheap.
Although the safety aspect of the residual funcionality is not under discussion, original blades are by no way useless perse. For the functional quality I can count on: http://www.archefact.be/ Even though any decision will be my responsiblity, I will at least have access to expertise and the general question lies with them now: ' is it worth looking for a serviceable antique?'
If not, than that is solved. If yes, than that is down to a technical issue and thus leaves me to ' worry' about the ethical aspect of it. I guess that must be my archeologicaly impregnated roots.
peter
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Sean Flynt
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why not pepper spray? |
I don't think the horse would like that.
« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: | | Quote: | | Why not pepper spray? |
I don't think the horse would like that. |
Well, anyone who'd spray it across the horse's face deserves to be eaten by the dogs and hogs, and probably will be. But as far as danger to horse and rider are concerned, it seems like a better choice than firearms or edged weapons. And unless that's a mighty big dog or boar, there wouldn't be any reason to spray horizontally, only straight down. Folks in the U.S. carry pepper spray for defense against aggressive bears, and I've heard that some horse riders carry it for use against dogs.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: | | Quote: | | Why not pepper spray? |
I don't think the horse would like that. |
But then YOU ride horses
Also this is one of the few things illegal and frowned upon.
A nice fact in the context that keeps drawing the tread off topis is: the word for javelin is jabalina and the word for wild boar is jabali. Translated a javelin would be ' boarer'
Anyway, back on topic; original or replica, the ethical aspect is the most ' challenging' for me personally.
As to the sort of blade I am inclined to, as suggested, let the functionality on horseback weigh havier than a resulting adaptation in excersizing forms.
Pending more info the current top runner on the short list is
http://www.zheng-wu.com/dao/qingdao.htm
with folded steel sanmai blade: no frills (thus rugged) with the best blade and balance currently availeable in this genre.
peter
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: |
Anyway, back on topic; original or replica, the ethical aspect is the most ' challenging' for me personally.
As to the sort of blade I am inclined to, as suggested, let the functionality on horseback weigh havier than a resulting adaptation in excersizing forms.
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One thing to consider is that the sword would not be put to any real stress or risk of serious damage under normal use and only used vigourously very rarely if ever to actual strike a wild dog in self-defence: Very rare emergency use !
A sound period sword that is NOT a rare antique would seem O.K. to me ethically for this kind of use. ( Not being abuse ).
The only other hazard or negative factor I would see is keeping it out of the rain !
Only if your practice sessions involved heavy and frequent cutting of challenging targets would a modern replica be the only choice.
Hope this helps focusing on what is and isn't an issue and make your decision about using a period original sword or not.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Hope this helps focusing on what is and isn't an issue and make your decision about using a period original sword or not. |
Yes it does, like several other brought up aspects, so thanks Jean (and all).
The riding I do is rather rough and the sword(scabard) will be scratched as a matter of course and everything you use regularly on horseback gets ' salted' . I realy like the way bronze aquires a patina in wheeks but is is rather harsh on iron, leather, wood, etc.
I do wonder however if I should not just aquire a pretty sword with all the balance and finess I like for excersizing forms/riding demos and make myself a proper mace for the nightly rides. The peper-spray (mace) made the
peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: |
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It is funny how we sometimes forget to state something obvious to US that may not be so to others.
Over here in Europe various countries the law has a fundamentally differing outlook on original blades as being antigues and replicas as ' armas blancas' .
This may be a Go-Nogo between being able to use a live blade or not.
peter
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz
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| Posted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just curious here about something, Peter, and please don't take any offense to my
last post ( I read your replies, thankyou ! ). Like I mentioned, I didn't know much of your
situation -- having read this ongoing thread I've gotten a bit more understanding to the
locale, your concerns, etc ...
A question just popped into my head, though ... Are there any authorities in the area
who you might talk to with regards to what you'd like to do ? Maybe they could give
you a better insight, or at least a thought or two in person ...
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: | Are there any authorities in the area
who you might talk to with regards to what you'd like to do ? Maybe they could give
you a better insight, or at least a thought or two in person ... |
I talk with 'the law' fairly regularly in the local bar(s).
My taichi instructor has given his view and will take another sword tomorrow.
Also I have as direct contacts as one could wish with archeologist specialists on old metal.
Several of my neighbours hunt and would take a large bore parallel shotgun to shoot at just about anything.
About unbridled X-country horseriding at night I am pretty much on my own.
Meanwhile I have some questions outstanding with the restorer, have put the compairative replica search on hold and made a drawing for a mace head. Concerning the nightly fun I will limit the walks to my stallion and continue the riding as before.
The topic;
1. original versus replica will hopefully be answered through the outstanding questions.
2. change is a certainty and a bit of patience usualy results in solutions presenting themselves
A humouristic note; a very close archeologist friend: ' Well, you will need a reliable antique dealer for that and frankly, I do not know of that.'
Obvously this is not meant to offend anybody and must be seen in the light of her frustration about LOADS of illegally 'metaldetectored' artefacts in her specialisation for sale.
peter
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This is a standard topic