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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Cold Steel Gross Messer         Reply with quote

Okay, one might wonder whether or not I've suddenly become infatuated with Cold Steel swords
or for that matter the reviews at Sword Buyers Guide, and the relatively inexpensive price-tags
there in. Since I last purchased the Cold Steel 1796 Light Cavalry Saber seen here :

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11594

I convinced myself to add the Cold Steel Gross Messer to my small collection as Mr. Tony Brass
put his up-for-sale in myArmoury's classifieds for an even lower price. Yes, the sword had been
used, but Tony encouraged my interest with the fact that his messer had suffered little but a scuff
here and there, and looked exactly like the sword of Nathan Robinson's myArmoury's review ! Of
course I high-tailed it to the reviews, tagged the messer, and was further encouraged by what I
read there.

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_cs_mess.html

Still, I zip-zapped over to SBG once again, and noted their video and review as well ...

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/gross-messer.html

Enough read, I thought, and struck a deal with Tony for his California-to-Michigan bound
sword !

For the price, the Messer's scabbard is rather nice. It fits well and is not too tight.


Even used, the blade has retained its shape and finish. Nothing remarkable, mind
you, but also rather nice.


As myArmoury's review notes, a weak-point is the threaded-pommel. Meanwhile, the
full tang is firmly pinned to the grip.


Another reason I decided to purchase Tony's Messer was that I've become interested in
Albion's Knecht -- a sword of a much larger price-tag, and I believe a much longer wait at
this time. But then again, I was thinking of planning for the sword next year and thought the
Cold Steel brand might be a good starting point to see if the somewhat similar styling
appealled ...

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...knecht.htm

First off, I was very pleased with the transaction with Tony. We had excellent contact with
one another throughout and the Messer arrived in good time and packaged soundly for its
trip. Secondly, this sword MIGHT be described as a monster if it were far closer to historical
accuracy. The darn thing is not so much a large knife as it seems an extra-large cleaver, as
though someone needed a very special chopper at the butcher's shop. One that could handle
the occasional " Steak Sale ! " day when there would be just as much meat in need of chopping
as people in need of it chopped ... B-)

As interesting as I find Cold Steel's Gross Messer it would be a hard sword to reccomend unless
you were smitten by its look, size, and -- giving SBG's review its due -- obvious weighty power. I hope
Nathan R. doesn't mind me borrowing his " Conclusion " on Cold Steel's messer because I think
he hits the mark :

Nathan concludes :

All in all, the Cold Steel Grosse Messer is a tight, well-made sword in terms of construction and materials.
I can't imagine it taking much damage from anything put in front of it. If the potential buyer is looking for a
tough-as-nails sword capable of devastating cuts on fixed targets, this sword just might fit that bill rather
well. There are very few production-made swords of this style available, and this is certainly a good attempt
to fill that niche.

The quality of heat treat on the blade, the edge geometry, and tight overall build tolerances will be enough for
many buyers to want to consider this an addition to their collection.

If the buyer is looking for a historically accurate Grosse Messer that handles with agility and ease while
maintaining cutting power, this sword will not fit that order. There are too many inconsistencies present when
compared to historical counterparts. The extreme weight and sluggish handling prevents it from being considered
a weapon for martial arts use, and the lack of subtlety of form and line will keep it from being appealing to the
collector looking for an authentic replica.

The suggested retail price on the sword is $300 USD. The notion of value is entirely subjective, but I simply
cannot state that I feel this sword is worth that asking price. Luckily, it can be found for substantially less from
many on-line sellers. At a bit less than $200, I'd say it would be a good buy for those happy with what this sword
can offer. For me, and my collecting tastes, this piece simply doesn't meet enough of my needs.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth, there have been a couple of instances of this sword breaking at the blade shoulder/tang juncture.
Happy

ChadA

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
For what it's worth, there have been a couple of instances of this sword breaking at the blade shoulder/tang juncture.


Here's the thread by Bob Burns, whose Cold Steel Messer broke at the first tang rivet / hole. Posted last april, a
good thing to remember is it is likely there is no good without there is some bad, if you follow ...

Chad : What would you propose caused or could cause such a break ?

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...oss+messer
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
Chad : What would you propose caused or could cause such a break ?


I believe Lloyd Clark had one break that same way, too.

As for why, it could be bad/improper heat treat, or improper shapes (ie no rounded shoulders) where blade meets tang, or bad steel. Or perhaps a variety of other things.

Happy

ChadA

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
Chad : What would you propose caused or could cause such a break ?


I believe Lloyd Clark had one break that same way, too.

As for why, it could be bad/improper heat treat, or improper shapes (ie no rounded shoulders) where blade meets tang, or bad steel. Or perhaps a variety of other things.


I pmed both Mr. Burns and Mr. Clark to see if they would post some thoughts or comments.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
I pmed both Mr. Burns and Mr. Clark to see if they would post some thoughts or comments.


Here's info on Lloyd's incident: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2652

Happy

ChadA

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
I pmed both Mr. Burns and Mr. Clark to see if they would post some thoughts or comments.


Here's info on Lloyd's incident: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2652


Thanks ...

Too bad neither thread ends with whether or not Cold Steel came through for either gentleman.

It would also be interesting to hear from those of my fellow forumites here who own a Cold Steel
Messer and have NOT had an issue ...
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am grateful that a link was provided to my post, as I would hate for my "Collecting Comrades" to spend too much for this sword and therefore expecting it to perform well like Cold Steel shows on their video. If you purchase the Grosse
Messer from Cold Steel, your going to pay $299.95. However, if you purchase the Cold Steel "Gross Messer" at
Kult of Athena, you will only pay $169.95 as I did almost some 2 years ago. For $169.00 the sword is OK, just don't expect it to perform like an Albion "Knecht"! Laughing Out Loud The Albion "Knecht" is a SWORD with Life! The Cold Steel "Grosse Messer" is a sword that is a sharp dead length of steel with a grip and a crossguard, with a tang that is not worth diddly squat!
I wrote three emails and left 2 or 3 phone messages with Cold Steel in regard to the tang snapping in two about 1 3/4"
from the crossguard in the grip, dead center where one of the rivet holes are located. Upon examination and I also got the same opinion from one of the fine swordsmiths in the myArmoury Forum who personally examined the break on the tang of my Grosse Messer and he agreed that the steel in the tang is brittle Exclamation
All I had tried to cut through was a board on a pallet that was 3/4 of an inch thick and at the most 4 inches wide and a dried out board at that. I cut in a clean downward motion with the flat of the board facing me and had the back of the pallet leaning against something. It was a fast, hard, clean cut and it snapped in half. I've done lot's of board breaking with my hand in karate, 2, 3 and 4 boards at a time, so I understand all about the proper execution, stance, force of power that is called "Chi", and believe me, this board was not Teak or Cocabola! LOL. It was "Pine"! LOL
This was early in my first year of shopping at Kult of Athena and Ryan (Owner) was upset and sorry the sword broke on me and I told him right away, Ryan your the vendor Not the manufacturer, this has nothing to do with you whatsoever!
Ryan kept in stock everything from the real cheap "Knock Offs" to Albion at that time, Arms & Armor products were not at Kult of Athena at that time, this was before I got involved and middle manned things with Kult of Athena and Arms & Armor
with several emails and several phone calls to each of them to bring things together and get Arms & Armor products into Kult of Athena. So now, Ryan has everything in stock from the cheap "Knock Offs" to Albion and Arms & Armor (Albion and Arms & Armor listed in alphabetical order, so as to not show any favoritism, because in my opinon both these companies are "Top Shelf PREMO" aka Awesome!!

If you did not pay too much for the Grosse Messer, Matt, then I'd say you did OK, you will get some idea of what a
Gross Messer sword is, but not to the magnitude of what it actually was in it's day. To get the latter, well then you would need to either buy the Albion "Knecht" or ask Arms & Armor to make a custom Grosse Messer for you.
The blade in the Cold Steel Grosse Messer is just too heavy and I mean you do feel the 4 pounds! It's not well balanced and lively like the Albion Knecht would be, but then again it is not anywhere near the same price either!

My emails and phone messages were cordial and business like, they were not even remotely obnoxious, angry or crass. Six messages in all and not one single response from Cold Steel Exclamation

If I were to have even the slightest problems with something from Albion, Arms & Armor, Chivalry Bookshelf,
Kult of Athena or any of the professional product manufacturers that are in the forum of myArmoury. I know that without question, I would get a very concerned response so fast that I would be surprised Exclamation
In fact, I had a "mild" problem with each of these four companies and I mean they were very mild. Each one of them responded in a heartbeat and at the end of the phone call or email, I was more than satisfied, I was HAPPY!
These are 1st Class Companies, from whom most of the businesses out there could learn a whole lot!
I salute them with "Respect"!

Sincerely!

Bob
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for chipping in, Bob. I still wonder if there are any Cold Steel Messer owners who
have NOT had a problem with either the sword or the company ...

With all this said, I'm probably gonna have a devil of a time trying to resell this beastie
should it come to that. B-)

Live and learn.
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Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
Joined: 23 Oct 2003

Posts: 724

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I purchased this sword from KOA about two years ago. I had read the the Nathan's and Bob's reviews of this sword, and had also read about the various problems with it and with Cold Steel's customer service. I finally decided I would take the chance, since the price was good, and buy it. In between placing my order and it's arrival, Bob shared his unfortunate experience. Needless to say I have been very careful with it.

Over all though, I have to say I have not had any problems with it, and in fact like it very much. I realize that it is not the most historically accurate piece, and did when I bought it, however I thought and still think it's a very attractive weapon. Mine seems very solid and well put together, with a good finish and edge, it's only draw back to me is it's weight. I have only done very light cutting on pumpkins, but was impressed with how well it cut. I don't intend to cut anything more then that. All in all, I'm pretty happy with my purchase. At the very least, to me, it makes an attractive wall hanger.

..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

At Kult of Athena's price of $169.95 that's not a bad deal. No need to fear cutting heavy cardboard, at least none that I experienced. If the steel in the tang was as good as the steel in the blade, i highly doubt the tang would snap.
But like I said, one of the "Swordsmiths" who also comes into myArmoury said on personal hands on examination of my broken Grosse Messer said, "The tang is brittle".

I was not bent out of shape that a $169.95 sword snapped on me in that situation. Now if I had paid the Cold Steel price of $299.95 I would have been rather upset.
What got my blood pressure up, was the fact that they never responded!
By the way, I've looked at several Chinese swords by Hanwei at Kult of Athena, though they are expensive, they are very nice! Especially that "Song Sword". Folded pattern steel and it has fantastic dynamics in wielding it! WOW!
Cuts the air with a nice whistle!

I am So Very Grateful to live so close to Kult of Athena. I did not know they were near me until I read a post in here and how good doing business was with them. Whereupon I went into the website again, but this time with a serious attitude and looked for their location. First thing I saw was the area code (847), My jaw about hit the floor Exclamation Laughing Out Loud

Enjoy your Messer, just don't whack at any wood and you should be fine!

Sincerely!

Bob
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional



Location: Michigan
Joined: 03 Oct 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If the tang is brittle, I wonder the feasibility of re-tempering just the tang to soften it a bit. Any suggestions?
Dan
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:
If the tang is brittle, I wonder the feasibility of re-tempering just the tang to soften it a bit. Any suggestions?
Dan


I was thinking the same thing and heating the tang to around 500 degrees f and letting it cool very slowly might work, the first inch or two of blade in front of the guard being a little softer might also be a good idea.

Removing the wood furniture on the handle and wrapping the blade in cold wet towels and using a propane torch maybe ?

Not very scientific as far as being sure the tang was heated enough, for long enough and cooled slowly enough.

It's also possible that some batches of blades may have been a problem and other batches better heat treated ?

In other words some might be good and only a few " LEMONS ".

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matthew D G




Location: Oklahoma, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have wanted to buy this sword for some time and if you dont mind me asking a few questions, is this sword worth the money? I've read some good reviews and a lot of bad ones so is it worth the risk? oh and congrats on getting a good Messer and lets all hope it dosent brake Happy
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Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's worth picking up especially at the KOA.
Jean, the thing about softening the tang sounds really good, I wonder if it would work. If it could, I'm really tempted to try it. hmmmm the possibilities...
It seems kind of unlikely though that some batches of the sword are worse then others. I guess it can't be ruled out, it just seems improbable to me.

..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel Chesser wrote:
I think it's worth picking up especially at the KOA.
Jean, the thing about softening the tang sounds really good, I wonder if it would work. If it could, I'm really tempted to try it. hmmmm the possibilities...
It seems kind of unlikely though that some batches of the sword are worse then others. I guess it can't be ruled out, it just seems improbable to me.



Well I think that some batches of coldsteel swords in general may be different as I remember reading that they may have changed suppliers at one time ( or more ? ). Also swords will be heat treated in batches and a bad batch can always get past quality control: There is no way that all swords of one model to have all been heat treated all at once if a model has been in production over many years.

I do have a couple of their knives that are the same model, the R1 MILITARY CLASSIC but one that is flat ground was made in Taiwan and the other that has a hollow ground blade was made in Japan: Both are early to mid 1990's production: So they do change makers for all sorts of reasons !? Better price for them, better quality control at times. ( Although both my knives seem almost identical except for grinding styles and both good quality ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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Posts: 864

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel Chesser wrote:
I think it's worth picking up especially at the KOA.
Jean, the thing about softening the tang sounds really good, I wonder if it would work. If it could, I'm really tempted to try it. hmmmm the possibilities...
It seems kind of unlikely though that some batches of the sword are worse then others. I guess it can't be ruled out, it just seems improbable to me.


Thanks for your input, Joel. One does hope that there are less lemons than gems -- from working in
retail its not unusual that you always hear the most about bad-things than you do good. Which is not
tosay a problem like this should be swept under the carpet.

On a thread in another forum where I also posted this purchase, a gentleman wrote that he had had
relatively good communications with Cold Steel, although I don't believe this was in regards to a
problem-issue.

Jean,
Thanks for your thoughts as well. To me its always MORE interesting when a forum thread evolves
as this one has. I do wonder how easily the wood grip would be to dismantle, though ? if in fact the
tang could be improved by some treatment.
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Joel Chesser




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I do wonder how easily the wood grip would be to dismantle, though ? if in fact the
tang could be improved by some treatment."

I have been wondering the same thing myself, frankly that innitial dissmanteling is as daunting to me as any other part of the process. Then again i kind of burned myself a while back when i took apart a Windlass european sword and never put it back together. Still, in all, the idea is really tempting. New grip, possibly less beefy with a cord and leather wrap or maybe some kind of burl wood...

..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
[Jean,
Thanks for your thoughts as well. To me its always MORE interesting when a forum thread evolves
as this one has. I do wonder how easily the wood grip would be to dismantle, though ? if in fact the
tang could be improved by some treatment.


Well it depends on how you want to put it together after: Using the same slabs of wood and the same rivets or if scrapping the handles and rivets is O.K. ?

If you don't mind destroying the existing components just grinding away the rivet heads should make taking the handle apart easy.

Finding new rivets first and making new slabs out of exotic wood maybe ( Might as well upgrade to better looking wood while you are at it ).

Saving the existing slabs might be possible but care would have to be taken not gouging the wood while removing the rivets.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 864

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Well it depends on how you want to put it together after: Using the same slabs of wood and the same rivets or if scrapping the handles and rivets is O.K. ?

If you don't mind destroying the existing components just grinding away the rivet heads should make taking the handle apart easy.

Finding new rivets first and making new slabs out of exotic wood maybe ( Might as well upgrade to better looking wood while you are at it ).

Saving the existing slabs might be possible but care would have to be taken not gouging the wood while removing the rivets.


Oy ! Now you're giving me ideas ! So ... not being a craftsman, I find someone to take the sword with
a plan to examine the tang for sturdyness. Step 1 : He'll have to remove the wood and rivets, so he'll
need to make a new grip ( gotta figure the wood will be totalled ). Step 2 : IF the tang looks good or
can be improved ? Complete that then onto ... Step 3 : Rebuilding the grip. Well, might as well start
with the hilt and work our way down, maybe see if a more solid pommel can be fixed up ?

All that work on a $ 150 sword ? I dunno .... B-)
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