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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2007 6:54 am    Post subject: Strange armour.         Reply with quote

Hello

I've found pics of this strange armour.It looks almost like brigandine.Almost-it has mail+large plate of steel inside,not little plates plates.There are two possible datings:

1.late 14century
2.late 15century

100 years difference.
Any thoughts?

http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=73e1139f17e8467c
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=39a5ef0881a07ca1
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=d11beb07bb91f7b3

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The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen this before. I am not sure but I think it's late 15th.
It's been a long time from when I was doing research on an A&S project on Gambesons and I kept running into such examples.
Sometime the breast plate was in 2 halves and others in a single plate with small and medium plates around it. Did not see any with this amount of chain though.
It look like a peasant levy construct of what ever he could find on the battle field and put together. Free Companies did this as well.
I have no definitive proof or examples, and that research is long gone, so take it with a gain of salt and go from there.

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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen similar pieces referred to under the name "transitional" before. I'm not sure if that one would fit whatever passed for a mold with that type, though.
Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Michael Shayduk




Location: Kyiv,Ua
Joined: 29 Mar 2007

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://guerriers-du-moyen-age.aceboard.fr/p-1...m#id369259

It is written in a book, that this brigantine 1380-1410 years, but I think that this brigantine of the late 15th.
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you compare this brigandine/coat of plate with the following artworks dating from around 1380, it could date from late 14th century.

The soldiers standing on the right
http://www.wga.hu/art/a/altichie/st_james.jpg

http://www.wga.hu/art/a/altichie/beheadin.jpg

Both frescos have been painted by Altichiero da Zevio ( ca.1330 - ca. 1390).

Unfortunately I couldn't find a bigger picture on the web of the fresco of the first link. You can see details of it in the Osprey book, Italian Militiaman 1260-1392, Warrior Series by David Nicolle.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My appologies for the thread necromancy, however, I have a certain interest in the brigandine in OP - does anyone knows if any new information about it's "pedigree" has become avaliable? If it is, indeed, dated as late 14th - early 15th century body armour, it woud provide a rather interesting option for a couple of sets of armour I have to make in near future, but so far it would appear, that aside from iconographic evidence that seems to indicate something similar might have existed, we have rather little evidence to proove it is apropriate for such an early date.
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was a long and detailed discussion of that artifact that pretty much dismissed the museum dating as a misprint or typo. It almost certainly dates from a century later based on plate shape, rivet patterns and interior mail reinforcement. If one looks carefully at the Altichero frescoes, the differences are readily apparent. Earlier breastplates were much larger in corraza than the later brigandine assemblies. The faulds are quite different as well. The little fabric wings along the bottom edge are the kickers. They weren't seen in civilian fashion until a century after the presumed date - then they are ubiquitous.
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Gabriele Pratesi




Location: Florence, Italy
Joined: 30 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
this could certainly help:
http://www.museodellacaccia.it/record.php?cod=Bd012922
it's an Italian brigandine exhibited in a small but interesting museum in the surroundings of Florence from the last quarter of the XV century, just the back part, not the entire as yours.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I am more interessed in the armour at the turning for the 14th century to 15th at this point - have two sets to make and I would like to use a brigandine, but it would appear that the choice is to make a variation of Chalcis brigandine or try to compile something like St. Georges statue in Prague from the remains of armour found in Otepaa castle... hence I was looking for another options.
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hope that I do not derail this post, but here are two images of a suit that I have no providence for. My guesstimate is that it is 15th Century but wishful thinking and the bascinets in the background have me hoping they are late 14th Century. Does anyone have more information on this suit or clues where the information may be obtained?

Mackenzie



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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the damaged suit that has been put togeather in a way that is questioned by scholars - it comes from the Livorno area. It is usually considered to be late 14th century, but, sadly, the reconstruction is questionable.
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The coat of plates in the original links in this thread is in the Sforza Museum in Milan. IIRC it's ~1400

Cole
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 406

PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some more images of the brig posted by Mackenzie. http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=28075 I noticed that the brig posted by Gabriele has the waist plates overlapping the upper and lower plates on the outside, which means no dishing of the waist plates.
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 10:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pictures are taken by Toby Capwell and it's from Sforza, Italy. Dating ca 1380's if memory serves correctly.
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