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Tomas Z.
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 Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Sword and pavice |
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I was wondering, was it common in 15th century to have a smaller pavice in one hand and a hand-and-half sword in the other? I think I've seen it somewhere? Do you have any pictures depicting this?
In case it's ok, where do you buy pavices?
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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As far as I know, "pavise" usually refers to the large shields used by archers and crossbowmen as portable cover. These were propped up or held by a second guy, and would entirely cover a man kneeling down to reload or take aim.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Mikko. You must be referring to a "buckler" or "targe", because these were small one-handed shields that could be used in conjunction with a sword.
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Tomas Z.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I think those are basically normal shields, long-ish heaters with concave outer surfaces (presumably to aid in trapping and binding the opponent's weapon; similar designs can be seen on bucklers). A pavise would have a raised channel in the middle for the prop, and the shield of the man on the right does look remarkably like that, but I think that's simply a trick of the slightly flawed perspective.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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There are two different concepts of a pavise:
1) The large shields that were stuck in the ground or otherwise held up. These normally had a prominent keel on the center line.
2) Any size of shield with a keel like the above definition. This category includes shields used by the Rus in the 15th century, as well as the shields you found a picture of.
So if you use definition two then the answer to your question is clearly yes.
I do not know of any work on techniques that may be specific to that type of shield.
-Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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going along with what steven just mentioned in the medievalperiod text the original terms used for pavaise do include smaller shields that are hand held. They also include larger ones that you can hide behind. Terminology is fairly fluid in the period depending on the writer and region in question. There are a few 15th century illustrations that show men with full armour fighting with them and a sword so I'd say you're good to go.
RPM
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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I stand corrected! Oh well, learning is always fun. 
This raises the question, would this smaller kind of pavise have a center grip behind the "keel" like a buckler, or grips and straps like a heater?
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Marton Pap
Location: Hungary Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
Hmm, so based on that picture the answer would be "either", a lot like early teardrop shields. Interesting.
No guiges, though, I note...
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is more a modern use of the term that gives the impression that only the larger ones are called pavaises so. Not wrong as much as familar with current work on the matter. There is no harm in using it so as long as one has a term to define the other smaller types. I have seen Target used to represent them but then you have a huge grey area of the ones inbetween door size and pocket size.
In some of the hussite artwork from Osprey's Hussite book show both types being employed. Both are show used by misslemen and the smaller used in melee fighting as well.
There are a few accounts that mention pavaises used at agincourt by the main body of men at arms. More than likely the smaller mobile ones but the passage indicates use agaist arrows. I often wondered if it would be discarded or places on a guige strap at the back once the man at arms engaged or used in the hand to hand fighting. Sadly we might never know but I have a feeling it was for both missiles and melee but perhaps in only certain situations.
RPM
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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What was the very tall dueling shield from the 15th - 16th century? (Might be off on the dates) I've seen drawings; apparently two people had one each and they fenced around it somehow.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Hisham Gaballa
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. Again, it seems one is center-gripped and one strapped to the arm, and neither has guige straps (unless the artist just left them out). Makes me wonder if they actually used a grip configuration that would allow both kinds of gripping, again somewhat like some early teardrops or late round Viking shields...
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Sword and pavice |
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| Tomas Z. wrote: | I was wondering, was it common in 15th century to have a smaller pavice in one hand and a hand-and-half sword in the other? I think I've seen it somewhere? Do you have any pictures depicting this?
In case it's ok, where do you buy pavices? |
Going right back to the top before the question of what a pavise could be defined as, I wonder if terminology is put aside, the real question was about the use of a shield or buckler paired with a longsword ?
If this wasn't the real point of the question I'm still curious about longsword + buckler versus the usual one handed sword + buckler.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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On the absence of guige straps: It's been my observation that Medieval artists frequently left out guige straps. I've seen paintings where the one assumes there is a guige because no other means of holding up the shield is apparent.
I suspect the same is true of helmet straps. 
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Stephen Hand
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 27 May, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Sun 27 May, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Nice! Looks something I could get. So...do you know where to get it?!
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This is a standard topic
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