[Robert Rootslane]

[Vinícius Arruda]

[Jared Smith]

[Robert Rootslane]

[Dan Howard]

[Johan Gemvik]

Robert, there's nothing preventing one from making as large punched rings as one wants really, except for punching force. Just use a bigger hammer. There are physical limits to this of course but then maille rings were never really all that huge. There are also solid links found in surviving mailles that are welded as they have an obvious seam, just like proper chain links. Doing this no doubt becomes easier with larger rings as they retain forge heat longer and have some decent material to work with the hammer. We've discussed this before in the thread.

Jared, the common idea among us maillemakers and maille historians is that high slag content makes wire break when being drawn, so either you get only short lengths free of slag (if you trim the ends off where it breaks) or you have to get the slag out before drawing the wire. Either way riveted links with no slag are the end result if they're drawn, whereas hammered wire could have all the slag you want (or don't as would be the case). This is just theory though. It's quite possible we're wrong about this but it sure seems logical to me.

On that note, the iron I got now needs to be turned into wire somehow. Simple hand force drawing of steel wire was practially impossible when I tried it, which probably means drawign the iron will also be quite difficult and an improbable way for it to have been done historically.
So I was looking at tools to help drawing and came across these.

http://www.jewelerstoystore.com/Steel_Drawplate_s/416.htm

http://www.jewelerstoystore.com/Draw_Bench_p/d64.htm

http://www.jewelerstoystore.com/Draw_Tongs_p/t50-1.htm

Of course, I'd rather design and build something historically plausible for viking age and also save some $$$ doing that.
I'll figure something out, being a mechanical engineer comes in handy sometimes after all, but do feel free to share your own ideas on this guys. Maybe someone has tried it already and has some leads? Maybe there are some medieval or ingenious renessance age machines illustrated somewhere that could give us a hint. Crossbow pulley systems come to mind and of course a simple mandrel might be sufficient at least for very thin wire.

[Johan Gemvik]

Easier than I first thought perhaps. I just found a swedish historical forum discussion thread regarding wire drawing (Historiska världar).

http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/foru...IC_ID=2817

Here's some images from the links on it. None of these solutions seem to me to requre technology that would have been beyond that of viking culture.










This paper was also quite interesting even though it covers far later age wire production. Note the similarities although somewhat industrialised compared to the images above.

Reproduction of Authentic Historical Soft Iron Wire for Musical Instruments by Stephen Birkett & Paul Poletti
http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~sbirkett/iron%20wire.pdf



Another interesting tidbit I found here (http://www.antracit.se/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=2102) is that slag is harder than iron or mild steel, so it damages the tools. That is unless you get a hardened steel draw plate or remove the slag from the iron before drawing. And apparenlty then you can draw wire from iron with slag in it, but it wears on the tools a lot, so you probably won't want to if you can avoid it.
This is yet another aspect to consider when looking at maille today and determining how it was made and why.

[Jared Smith]

[Robert Rootslane]

[Andris Auzins]

[Johan Gemvik]

[Robert Rootslane]

[Johan Gemvik]

Sorry for leaving you hanging Robert. I'll endeavor to look into the subject once more and get back to you on it. But perhaps it desverves a separate thread.


Anyway, time for an important update!

I've just finished manufacturing and trying out a set of drop forge tools for shaping the solid links. Hopefully this will meet with Vegards approval as well as the rest of you.

The first tests show that the best result to match the originals is to first round the outside with the sand stone, and then drop forge the ring. Alternatively you can do the grinding of the outside afterward but it still leaves a slightly imperfect ring that is for some reason flatter. Why it needs grinding even with drop forging is because I get a lip seam on the outside, but perhaps this is just the tools not being perfect. First time i make drop forge tools, and I used viking age coin stamps as templates.

Photos will be up soon.

[Johan Gemvik]

I saw a clue in what the tools may have looked like in the off center stamped ring. This would most likely not occur with a hinge as shown in the reconstruction posted earlier, unless it only fit very loosely together and had side to side play which I expect a craftsman would try to avoid with that design, but the offset could easily happen if the tool was made from a separate top and bottom stamp and you simply held it together wrong.

So what could that look like? What did other tools used for similar purposes look like in the viking age?

Here's what I came up with after some brainstorming and rifling through some find catalogue books. Coin stamps!

Here's an example of a viking age coin stamp, I think you'll see where I'm going with this.


http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/viking/viking-coins

Note the point to hammer it into a wooden block, the same type as on the small hammer-in anvils found all over europe in viking culture sites. Several of these stamps have been recovered from sites and I've been busy studying images and data on them before proceeding with the drop forge solid ring stamp. Finds exist with the lower part alone remaining but also in full sets with both an "anvil" and "striker" stamp if you will. They're usually round section or sort of square but with rounded corners. I'll scan off some books I have and show more examples from finds.

Some have been made from tempered steel, others from plain iron. I made my drop forge tools from cold rolled modern mild steel, which is in somewhere between these in hardness. I may coal the striking surface and temper it later if I feel it's necessary for a lasting tool.

Here's my first attempt, hardly pretty to look at but seems to work decently.
I'll probably make another lower tool, it's not as perfect round as the top stamp, and I'll make another for drop forging the overlapping rings into a slight teardrop in preparation for riveting also, if possible with an indentation mark for the awl for drifting the rivet hole.



I was unable to reproduce the off center ring so far, because the stamp I have now has the same hardness as the rings and it seems like it's slightly damaging the stamps when I try it and not deforming the ring enough even striking considerably harder than when the ring is in the slot and forming nicely. I could experiment with annealing some rings to make them softer and more pliable, or I could try it with iron rings instead of steel.



What I did get was some nicely rounded rings, the best ones to the right are from pre- ground rings, the ones to the left are simply straight from punching, with non-drop-forged comparison rings underneath. To the far right is an overlapping ring drop forged in the same tool. Interesting enough I've seen some rings that look just like that on some other round ring mailles, riveted through a thin overlap with a tiny rivet without any teardrop flattening.

Here are some closeups of the best examples from this first test batch. The system seems to be working nicely and I feel like this is on the right track, but the tools are still a bit rough and need more work. What's hard to make out in these photos is that the very top of the solid actually has a flat area, the rounding doesn't go quite all the way over, just like on the original rings.





The tools are a joy to work with.
First you hammer the lower tool into a block of wood, then you place the ring in the slot. You can easily find the right position since the ring slots securely into both tool surfaces, then you strike it with a slegehammer. You have to strike hard, but not harder than when punching the the ring from plate. Afterwards you grind the outside on the whetstone a little and then it's finished. One might want to oil burn it before assemby in a weave, but you can do it afterwards also.

[Johan Gemvik]

I've just scanned some photos of coin stamps from the book Viking og Hvidekrist.
This isn't so much a regular book a an exhibit catalogue from the gigantic and practically all encompassing touring Viking exhibit of 1992-1993 called Les Vikings/ Wikinger/ Viking og Hvidekrist, depening on where in europe it was touring at the time. A great source for all things viking, though it obviously is missing any finds more recent than 1992.
The book I have alternates descriptive texts in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish depending on find origin. Possiby it's also available in German and French.

*EDIT - I believe this book is called "From Viking to Crusader" in English, though I haven't been able to find a copy to verify this.*

Anyway, in it I've found two coin stamps of interest for the project. One is from the Coppergate find, the other is from London, showing two possible styles to use for my tools.


Striker piece, from London find, some details can be seen in the bottom of the scan. Of note is that this tool has a temperd steel face.


Anvil piece, from coppergate. This is dated to 925 AD, and the closer of the two in time to the Gjermundbu maille. Perhaps this means that the rounded type tool would be more suitable to reconstruct.

I'll see if I can also host pdf scans of the pages these were from, though they are in Norwegian.

[Kai Lawson]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but...

Would you be able to post pictures of the finish/current mail patch, provided it isn't already gone?

[Johan Gemvik]

Actually, I recently started on a new one with drop forged solids. Not much to show yet but I have some photos and a short youtube presentation clip. I'm writing on my phhone and can't copy the links easily with it but I can add those tonight.

[Johan Gemvik]

Not much of a weave yet, just a 4-in-1. I've been too busy with work.








And here's a quick and dirty smartphone video. Sorry about the rock'n roll music, it's the least bad I could find to cover a poor sound capture.

http://youtu.be/lNx7Hp3WYpU

[Johan Gemvik]

I got me some bags of pre-made roman maille rings from GDFB uk.

I was stuck in a rut trying to make the riveted rings work and look the way I wanted while still keeping manufacturing time down. Most of the issues is because these links are just so tiny. Hopefully this kit will let me jump ahead with some details and let me put mind and effort where it's most needed.
For one thing I just missed the joy of making weave and seeing it grow at a decent pace, even not perfectly authentic one. The GDFB patch you see ot the right in the photos with my mods for single side dome riveting took a couple of hours to make compared to months for my old patches all my own.


Their solids are thinner than what would be suitable for reconstructing Gjermundbu maille, and the riveting they do is doulble sided dome riveting which wouldn't be suitable for this project. But the riveted links lend themselves beautifully to modification to make them look more auithentic (i.e. single side riveting for starters) and also to combination with my own solids.
This lets me build faster, so I can make a decent patch to see what it looks like. Obviously they're not as accurate with the cut hole rather than an awl-made one but I wanted to experiment and modify and see what results I could get with it.


Here's a set of photos of the trials so far.

[Johan Gemvik]